JAZZ! On Thursday nights at the JD Bar

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Richard
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Re: JAZZ! On Thursday nights at the JD Bar

Postby Richard » Sun Nov 15, 2015 12:48 pm

Thanks a lot Tony, for the many useful links.
I took a look at the first video, which was really interesting, it seems that the origins were definitely raw and primal and evolved inside America for various reasons.
As Jazz developed and became more organised, to allow creative improvisation, at least some of the basic rules of music had to be learned first.
I guess motivation and a good teacher helps a lot, and some of the Blacks seemed so enthusiastic and cheerful they would easily absorb some basic training.
The cultural setting is important too - I think there are barriers for people like me who tend to reject the way music is taught formally, as being way too boring.
However I do like listening to Jazz as it can range over a wide variety of emotions.

Onward and Upwards!! :)

Tony_MacDonnell
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Re: JAZZ! On Thursday nights at the JD Bar

Postby Tony_MacDonnell » Sun Nov 15, 2015 12:53 pm

Jazz is the only truly original American art form.

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moonjiver
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Re: JAZZ! On Thursday nights at the JD Bar

Postby moonjiver » Sun Nov 15, 2015 1:58 pm

Ah, great! Some input from someone who knows what he is talking about! Thanks Tony, I will watch those videos avidly.

A couple of years back, I came close to deciding to get tuition on the sax (it has a reed and is a cousin of the clarinet, the instrument I most love). But you can only do so much in one lifetime and it would have taken time away from my writing and some other things! I might yet do it - if my other ideas dry up and I have time to practise scales properly every day.

I myself feel that some formal training, in music or art or writing, is very valuable as long as you have a good tutor who doesn't have rigid ideas about the "proper" traditional way to express yourself. After confidence comes, the individuality and finding one's unique "voice" follows.

Benny Goodman was probably not the greatest clarinet player at all but he is my favourite. I could recognise his sound from amongst a dozen recordings of different artistes, because of a particularly sweet and gentle sound, like a nightingale running up and down the keys. Benny Goodman played classical concerts as well as jazz. Some of Ellington's more formal compositions are complex and beautiful.

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moonjiver
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Re: JAZZ! On Thursday nights at the JD Bar

Postby moonjiver » Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:16 pm

I was trying to say that quite a few performers started in classical forms and moved into jazz - or were equally at home in both forms.

There is not actually such a great division between formal written scores and free improvisation. There is evidence that some improvisation took place even amongst 18th century musicians and, as far as aven some Mozart scores make it clear that allowance was made for the performer to include some improvisation of his own. But not quite the departures which took place with the new beats and devices of jazz!!

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Richard
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Re: JAZZ! On Thursday nights at the JD Bar

Postby Richard » Sun Nov 15, 2015 6:39 pm

Classical training may have been an important bedrock for certain 'jazz' bands but for others not involved in that medium, a formal background was not necessarily a pre-requisite.
For example, 'The Beatles', had no 'Classical' training and basically played what sounded right to begin with and were guided by their producer, Sir George Martin, who was 'Classically' trained (and studied at the Guildhall School of Music) with in-depth knowledge of composition to impart.
The Beatles had some wit and vocal talent, with McCartney and Lennon having a huge ability to hum a melody and write matching lyrics, later notated by George Martin.
Ringo Starr was already a talented drummer, by all accounts.

Most of the Beatles' orchestral arrangements and instrumentation (as well as frequent keyboard parts on the early records) were written or performed by Martin in collaboration with the less musically experienced band.
To begin with the band members could only strum basic chords and were quite naive 'apprentices - musically speaking, but somewhere along the line they managed to pick up greater technical skills 'on the job'.

'Jazz' would seem less forgiving, in its more refined forms, but its origins certainly arose out of 'primitive' people without any formal training whatsoever.
Clearly, on seeing the greater benefits in being able to manipulate musical output through formal training, and go on to greater success, the motivation was there and could be acquired by any means possible.
Possibly a marriage between untrained innate talent and those who were better-trained (but less creative) formed a more dynamic creative expression?

Tony_MacDonnell
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Re: JAZZ! On Thursday nights at the JD Bar

Postby Tony_MacDonnell » Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:09 pm

Bach was a great improviser on the church organ and it was a common practice in his day - the 17th Century. Classical musicians refer to it as "extemporisation" rather than improvisation. Also a section in a classical concerto called the"cadenza" would also also allow for imrpovisation. Jazz has become formalised now and is taught at musical colleges around the world. I sometimes mention that I was the first jazz drummer to graduate from the Jazz and Light Music Course at Leeds College of Music, Europes's first accredited jazz course. As well as the Jazz qualifications, I also studied classical percussion and have an LRAM which goes to show that the lines are now blurred. Most modern jazz musicians of my generation and younger have formal training to a greater or lesser extent. To play jazz however still requires passion and flair which no education can provide.

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moonjiver
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Re: JAZZ! On Thursday nights at the JD Bar

Postby moonjiver » Sun Nov 15, 2015 10:53 pm

No, I'm sorry Richard but this isn't accurate! I would say the complete opposite - many jazz bands did not have any kind of classical foundation and I can think of a string of great performers who had no formal training whatsoever. Young Louis Armstrong was first spotted when playing inside prison - he'd been picked up for pimping!

Not true either that the Beatles had no proper training - maybe not formal or classical training but Paul McCartney studied music and art up to age eleven and must have been a generally bright pupil because he passed his eleven-plus.

Lennon's father I think was a minor composer and his mother taught him both piano and guitar. No question of them just picking up guitars from scratch and having a go!

Of course orchestration was one of George Martin's contributions - but what's wrong with that? Many composers have utilised others to elaborate a melody - I'm pretty sure it was Irving Berlin who couldn't read music but composed those wonderfull songs - and handed them over to someone else to work on!

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Re: JAZZ! On Thursday nights at the JD Bar

Postby moonjiver » Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:22 pm

I meant banjo in Lennon's case, his mother taught him that. One of the things which brought L and M together was that John was more familiar with banjo and was impressed by McCartney's ability to string and tune a guitar properly. And McCartney at that time was ahead on actual playing skill, which Lennon felt challenged by.

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Richard
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Re: JAZZ! On Thursday nights at the JD Bar

Postby Richard » Mon Nov 16, 2015 12:55 pm

I have no idea what is different about 'Jazz' drumming, except that, judging by the drummer on the first video, it often requires 'lightning-fast' co-ordination of the sticks over the drums and leaves me baffled.
I think piano-playing also requires tremendous speed and co-ordination at times and I was watching a concert recently, on TV, where an extremely long piece was played very skilfully by memory alone, how do they remember so much music?

Returning to 'The Beatles' I think McCartney and Lennon played a lot of notes that were plain wrong, according to George Martin, but they had passion and a flair and resisted his instruction saying “they sounded better”, which is fine and it would have stifled their creativity to take the time to obey every edict, however 'correct'.
In fact the Beatles were so bad initially that nobody would take them on and Martin was in two minds as their musical ability was pretty dire, regardless of any informal training they may have picked up.
It is said that Lionel Bart could not read or write any music but he created melodies and had the instinct for what would work and wrote the words for numerous Pop tunes of the day, and of course, the Hit Musical 'Oliver'.
He simply 'hummed' tuneful melodies to an agent who notated them.
I think many creative talents can indeed get away with just about whatever works, but it is important to have some reference to the formal structures, whether it is in the shape of other trained people, working in close collaboration, plus or minus a gradual learning process of personal development. (picking it up as you go along).

Perhaps because the process of writing formal music notation to match melodies and their lyrics is so multi-faceted that the division of labour makes more sense than one person becoming a 'Jack-of-all-Trades'.
Certainly to repeat a performance, pulling a lot of strands together, requires some form of overall structured control and Bands playing in an Orchestra could not develop to a high degree without strict formal training, nor Pianists like Chopin manage by improvisation alone.

Being unwilling or too turned off by stultifying formal processes, in how to correctly learn to read or write music. let alone play it, and without any magical ability to formulate melodies in my sleep, leaves me excluded from the whole 'shooting match', but I still enjoy listening as music 'speaks' to, or stimulates, certain areas of the mind.
My creativity goes much more easily into painting, ceramics, jewellery-making, and anything requiring skillful hand to eye co-ordination which pleases or stimulates me.

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moonjiver
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Re: JAZZ! On Thursday nights at the JD Bar

Postby moonjiver » Mon Nov 16, 2015 1:55 pm

Tony MacDonnell's piece about Bach etc. was clearly posted long before my own last ones but didn't appear on my smartphone screen until AFTER I had posted - is that possible?! I have noticed quirks before - is it possible my phone is not immediately downloading the most recent posts ?

Anyway, I hope my ignorance is not showing too badly, it's a fascinating subject and I should have studied it more before now. I had a feeling that "extemporisation" was an honourable tradition in classical music. What is a revelation to me is that training in jazz muzic has become pretty formalised - surely a complete turnaround from the early humble origins of experimentation and very individual performing styles?!

I have actually written a few songs - I'd be embarrassed to show them to a trained musician - one or two melodies are clearly derivative but others worked out ok. One or two started out as poems and became ballads but, in a couple of cases, the melody came into my head first and the words later. I sang them at open mic nights and they were pretty well-received!

I'm not really saying this to show off but to demonstrate what is possible when the creativity flows and you are absorbing influences from talented people around you.


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