Corbyn will never be Prime Minister

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ColinL
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Re: Corbyn will never be Prime Minister

Postby ColinL » Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:54 pm

Ms Seahermit, we are all busy but it is necessary to discuss controversial claims once they are made and not let them go as if they are true. If you change your mind and spell out the facts that you dispute or explain what it is that confuses you as 'waffle' or 'hyperbole' then I am sure we can make progress

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Richard
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Re: Corbyn will never be Prime Minister

Postby Richard » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:22 am

As far as I am aware Sir William Macpherson was picked to lead the public inquiry into Stephen Lawrence’s murder and the allegedly corrupt police investigation that followed.
Macpherson defined institutional racism as “the collective failure of an organisation to provide an appropriate and professional service to people because of their colour, culture or ethnic origin”. It is seen in “processes, attitudes and behaviour which amount to discrimination through unwitting prejudice, ignorance, thoughtlessness and racist stereotyping which disadvantages minority ethnic people”.
Antisemitism is generally considered to be a form of racism.
There are dangers of introducing too much subjectivity into the definition of racism, by allowing the victim’s perception of the nature of a hostile act to be determinative, rather than (as Macpherson intended) the starting point of an investigation.
If Labour are allowing potential victims the last word as to what constitutes anti-Semitism (as above) this precludes all investigation into the intention of the impugned act, it interferes with the rule of law, which rarely if ever allows irrebuttable presumptions.
So, is the Macpherson definition perhaps misunderstood or given incorrect interpretation or importance, within the Labour Party's anti-Semitism definition?

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ColinL
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Re: Corbyn will never be Prime Minister

Postby ColinL » Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:07 pm

Richard you have identified the exact nub of the issue of what is and is not antisemitism, and that it cannot be a subjective view. Macpeherson Report was discussed by the judge in Fraser v UCU. He said of two MPs who complained of atisemitism, "We did not derive assistance from the two Members of Parliament who appeared before us. Both gave glib evidence, appearing supremely confident of the rightness of their positions".

In relation to John Mann (now supposedly a govt antisemitism Czar) they said
"Mr Mann could manage without even that assistance.(Macpherson ) He told us that the leaders of the Respondents were at fault for the way in which they conducted debates but did not enlighten us as to what they were doing wrong or what they should be doing differently. He did not claim ever to have witnessed any Congress or other UCU meeting".


In relation to the other MP Mr MacShane, they said "For Dr MacShane, it seemed that all answers lay in the MacPherson Report (the effect of which he appeared to misunderstand). The Tribunal commenting on them both said "Both parliamentarians clearly enjoyed making speeches. Neither seemed at ease with the idea of being required to answer a question not to his liking".

Macpherson is not misunderstood within the Labour Party structure and are not allowing complainants the last say, and for that reason it is being attacked. It is being misused by complainants, who following the Board of Deputies suggestion is that it is up to Jewish people (but only certain ones) to define antisemitism.

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Richard
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Re: Corbyn will never be Prime Minister

Postby Richard » Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:00 pm

Of course if people are being bullied /abused /threatened online then there may be some real evidence to go on.
This is difficult to 'police' in every detail however and may be adults should be a little more intelligent about what they choose to feel upset about. They can rationalise and deal with threats more sensibly.
Children of course are so much more vulnerable and need protection on many levels...

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ColinL
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Re: Corbyn will never be Prime Minister

Postby ColinL » Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:19 pm

Quite ironic that the 'Party of law and order' was responsible for a security clampdown at its own Conference yesterday, when it's Treasuer of the 1922 Committee , the body responsible for discipline, Geoffrey Clifton-Brown was in a fracas at Conference with security staff and was told to leave the event by the police.

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Richard
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Re: Corbyn will never be Prime Minister

Postby Richard » Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:39 am

Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown was asked to leave the event after he clashed with staff as he tried to enter a room with a guest without the relevant pass.
A staff member guarding the door of the International Lounge said the incident was sparked by a disagreement.
"It was a small misunderstanding," the man said.

A Greater Manchester Police spokesman said an attendee "attempted to enter the International Lounge area of the conference without the relevant pass".
"Security staff intervened and resolved the situation without any breach of security occurring," he added.

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seahermit
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Re: Corbyn will never be Prime Minister

Postby seahermit » Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:12 pm

I was up in East Anglia last month, beautiful peaceful area and far from the madness of politics.

A few weeks on and as far as I can see, nothing has changed! Still chaos very largely and none of the disputes between different factions seem to have been resolved. Yet more Conservative MPs are thinking of forming themselves into a separate group - some newspapers said "new party" but that seems unlikely.

I hate to say "I told you so" but months back I reckoned a no-deal Brexit was the most likely outcome (if Brexit happens at all of course) and that still seems very much on the cards.

Hard to know what else to say. Still a completely mixed-up and unpredictable situation, Corbyn still as weak and contradictory, Boris trying to battle on and win through by determination and atleast an identifiable political stance. It might work .. if he hasn't upset and alienated too many Tory MPs by now!

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Richard
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Re: Corbyn will never be Prime Minister

Postby Richard » Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:33 pm

The EU are still trying to suggest that it will take longer than October to formulate plans.
Stringing us along forever and a day cannot be the answer.

If there is an election and Labour do not win then Corbyn is gone - hence he fears an election.

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seahermit
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Re: Corbyn will never be Prime Minister

Postby seahermit » Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:37 am

One of the major impediments has been the monolithic attitude of the EU bureaucracy - unmoving, uncompromising and unwilling to give an inch. One of the reasons we should, having given the talks a jolly good try, just get out and get on with it. We owe a duty only to ourselves, not to anyone else's sensitivities. That does not of course mean disregarding the anxieties of those Europeans who have lived/worked here for years and who rely upon the UK to treat them with respect and help.

cbe
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Re: Corbyn will never be Prime Minister

Postby cbe » Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:19 am

The EU is terrified of the UK leaving, partly because of the loss of our 'contributions' but also because after the initial blip,we will be very successful and that will embolden more countries to escape the grip of this socialist monolith.
The reason they have been never bothered to try to get a 'deal' which is anything other than a UK capitulation, with us chained to them in all but name, is because they see the help they are getting from our 5th columnists.


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