what are your biggest electricity costs ?

[cbe]

Richard I WILL after this brief reply,made only to let you know I have read your post,
retire from the field. We will never agree on this subject and will just fill our waking hours quoting bits and bats from various periodicals/pamphlets to suit our viewpoint.
You will recall from my opening outburst my disagreement is not about whether we have global warming/global cooling but the extent to which man's actions play a part.

Have a nice (warm) day

[moonjiver]

This has been a fascinating debate. Richard clearly has more of the scientist's mind than I have and is able to lay out a better, technically informed and reasoned case on all this. But I would also take umbrage at the suggestion that I have somehow "made my mind up" and am not open to new or different theories .. about anything. I would hope that surely any person who professes or aspires to be reasonably well-educated would say the same?

Like anyone - no, like all those who are not conspiracy theorists and don't believe that the moon-landings were a hoax film made by the CIA! - I try to read as widely and well as possible and stay abreast of what happens beyond the walls of my little garret hovel. I decide my mind about different issues based on the evidence so far available and I have probably changed my position many times over the years.

I find it a bit sad that some people are so eager to grab at half-truths, popular myths and the sensationalist headlines from tabloid newspapers as their sources of "information". It doesn't help anyone, doesn't move the debate forward and just wastes time.

I am sorry to be a bit plain-spoken, but truths emerge from a proper examination and assessment of available evidence - not from arguments based on emotion or what people really wish was the reality.

[moonjiver]

It is not true that "cbe" was arguing about man's contribution towards global warming, not about whether it was happening in the first place.

In one of his early posts, "cbe" clearly states "There is very clear evidence that the earth has NOT warmed up over the past dozen years or so". Similar assertions are made at other times.

"cbe", you do need to be consistent and make your mind up what it is you are asserting, before people can properly understand your side of the debate!

[cbe]

Moonjiver you do need to be a little less precious

[Richard]

The change in global warming, leading to climate change, because of man's activity, is well recognised and can be isolated in a time-reference as follows:
in 1800, there were 280 parts per million (ppm) of CO₂ in the atmosphere. That had been the level for most of human history, and we know that from ice-cores and isotopic evidence.
At the current date, however, concentrations have now exceeded 400 ppm, the first time it has reached that level for a million years, again, determined by scientific analysis of cores etcetera.

[Richard]

Moonjiver you do need to be a little less precious

cbe - whatever you really think about moonjiver, he is definitely perceptive, articulate and intelligent, as well as being sensitive - so you might have hurt his feelings.

[cbe]

Richard - I doubt it - and since during Moonjiver's posts I was more or
less told I was talking nonsense, was a liar and picked up on any conspiracy
theory I think I would have more cause to feel hurt

[moonjiver]

I know what it is, Richard, you are angling for a drink! Might get it some time too, gladly ..

No, seriously, thanks for the compliments, not really deserved and I do speak too plainly at times, I'm sorry. But of course these are important issues and it is necessary for people to be very focused and see things very clearly - it just isn't good enough to start from a baseline of supposition, personal theories, hunches, whatever. We live in a very "rationalising" age. Without a good solid body of evidence, your case won't be listened to or believed!

I am reminded of the following masterpiece.

Here lies the body of Henry Day
Who died maintaining his right of way.
He was right, dead right as he walked along
But just as dead as if he'd been wrong.

Lights out.

[Richard]

For the sceptics:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1 ... ZkKo7WTkxg

http://www.astronomynotes.com/solarsys/s11b.htm

[moonjiver]

Thanks Richard for the links, that's excellent. It's almost too painful to read the facts of what is happening to the planet these days but I will definitely read those journals when I have a moment.

New Scientist of course is the other important one I should have mentioned, couldn't remember the name.