The EU Referendum

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moonjiver
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Re: The EU Referendum

Postby moonjiver » Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:43 pm

This is nonsense, these are internal issues which have nothing at all to do with the economic and political arguments pertaining to the EU.

Charities, health groups, teaching organisations etc. are already strongly contesting and slowing the controversial changes to education, the benefit system and the. NHS. If the Labour party, with a more focused and dynamic leader than at present, joined in the debate more forcefully, opposition would be much more effective.

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ColinL
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Re: The EU Referendum

Postby ColinL » Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:53 pm

It is precisely that voters have been convinced that the domestic political problems are partly or wholly down to us "being told what to do by Brussels' or 'our money being spent without our control' that has resulted in voters thinking that all the problems can be solved by leaving the EU.

I am not particularly pro EU but the alternative that we now face is the most right wing Tory govt since the 1920s. Those leaders are the elite that they have complained about and they are certainly not working for the man in the street, whatever they may claim .

Corbyn was the only person who put forward a credible alternative based upon a critical analysis.
Look what happened in Scotland when the former leadership stood side by side with the Tories on the independence issue. They got slaughtered in last years election when Corbyn was not in power. He is the only person who can build an alternative but not in a matter of a few months.

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ColinL
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Re: The EU Referendum

Postby ColinL » Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:05 am

Labour in the Commons and Lords have been in the forefront of opposition to the issues you raise and it is the charities, educationalists, health workers who lobby them to work on amendments to legislation or negative motions as happened with the budget. Labour must however seek out some disgruntled Tories, sympathetic SNP and Green to establish numbers, as unfortunately labour does not have the arithmetic numbers to defeat a tory majority. I have with various groups been involved in working on housing law issues of the Housing & Planning Act and the housing issues in the Immigration Acts 2014 and 2015 that resulted in changes.

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moonjiver
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Re: The EU Referendum

Postby moonjiver » Sat Jun 25, 2016 1:50 am

You talk of the "issues you raise" - no, matey, it was you who raised them and I repeat: what on earth have they got do with the EU referendum, which was largely about our ability to make our own decisions without influence from Brussels?

Your claim that this government is the most right-wing since the 1920's shows a woeful ignorance of history. The Tory administrations which led up to Macmillan's premiership in the early 1960's were staunchly oldfashioned conservatism. Thatcher's government in the 1980's was very much more right-wing and harsh - led to some terrifying riots in the streets and to her downfall. Again, all irrelevant to the EU argument!

I can't argue further with you - you seem to be missing the point of what the last few days have really been about.

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Richard
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Re: The EU Referendum

Postby Richard » Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:30 am

We voted out of the EU for a variety of reasons, leaving the rest of the member countries rather fearful of allowing a similar referendum of their own.
We left despite the warnings from big business and their own worries so it is not just about money, except of course, for the Scots who have a bit of a headache now and despite the legal background of N. Sturgeon there may be legal complications if they try to get their own way. They would have to go to the back of the queue, behind Turkey.
A wake-up-call to the rest of the EU to reform what drove the UK away - perhaps it was something to do with their clandestine leadership elections and inabilities in showing proper accounts or possible corruption and lack of democracy.
The intention of the EU to exert increasing control over our sovereignty and the sense that it is going in the wrong direction, is full of fault-lines and allows unrestricted immigration as one of it's central edicts, with Muslims getting in from Turkey being another fear.
We haven't even applied to leave yet, despite the EU wanting us out ASAP NOW.

Corbyn is far left with a constituency in Islington, seen as aloof, not really a man of the people.
The Tories will probably not go to the far right as they are divided along different lines.

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moonjiver
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Re: The EU Referendum

Postby moonjiver » Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:52 am

Yes, a mixture of reasons for Brexit but probably the over-riding ones were immigration and freedom to make our own decisions without EU interference.

Apart from our own rocky road ahead (very likely for a while), the EU has been presented with a real dilemma. Their unwillingness to make other than small, cosmetic concessions to the UK's demands for change led to Brexit - but other countries will now be thinking about following the UK's example to some extent. If the EU does relax its control and allow much real change to take place, it will only encourage dissenters in various countries and stir up a hornet's nest! Great danger of the EU falling apart in the years ahead.

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Richard
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Re: The EU Referendum

Postby Richard » Mon Jun 27, 2016 1:36 pm

Funnily enough we managed to shake up both the major political parties, as a consequence of the EU results, and since the Scots are all-a-dither too then we have more mischief from that direction also.
Labour is now in major 'meltdown', so do we face a lurch to the far-left, Corbyn is/was an Islington 'intellectual' and not seen to be in-touch.
If he can fight off a tough leadership challenge he will still face another struggle in the next election, which may be closer than we think.
No real joy with the Tories either, just a placeholder role for Cameron whilst they too attempt a leadership replacement.
The referendum was too close for many and there will no doubt be some very sensible arrangements made inside the EU once the knee-jerk reactions have subsided.

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moonjiver
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Re: The EU Referendum

Postby moonjiver » Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:03 am

Some real politics going on at present! Instead of many people being depressed and cynical about politicians and resigned to their inability to make their voices heard. The conflict will be painful but good often comes out of these upheavals.

I predicted months ago that Corbyn would not last a year - not far out I think!
What is very possible is a split between Corbyn's left-wing grassroots supporters and moderate party members (including parliamentary members). The stress of the Referendum has exposed the longstanding divisions in the party.

The Tories will work it out - they are better at re-forming, burying their differences and working together again but yes, almost certainly an election before long. A new PM will want a mandate for Brexit.

The Scottish Independence lobby are seeing an opportunity but .. it is not legally possible for them to challenge the referendum result which was a fair poll across the UK, not one devolved in any way for each region/country. It is also unlikely in reality that the EU would enter into negotiations with Scotland separately - can you imagine the storm of international protest which would result from what would be seen as foreign interference?!

The Sots may try to mount another independence referendum but that again is fraught with difficulty. It would take time to pass the legislation and, before then, the EU may well be itself in turmoil and struggling to stop further defections.

In any case, the Scottish population would have to decide to relinquish their UK citizenship in order to rejoin a failing EU - it really doesn't seem at all likely!

northants1066
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Re: The EU Referendum

Postby northants1066 » Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:23 pm

With all the sour grapes from the poor losers at Remain it is worth mentioning that of the 382 local authorities in the UK 263 voted to Leave, If they had been Parliamentary constituencies in a General Election that would have been classed as a landslide victory and no more would have been said.

Whatsmore in England outside of London every region voted Leave.! How more comprehensive a Leave vote could you imagine.

Even Amber Rudd a red hot Remainer was humiliated in her own backyard!

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Richard
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Re: The EU Referendum

Postby Richard » Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:45 pm

I have to say, love him or loathe him, Farage has some 'balls,' while speaking to the Brussels lot today, he said words to the effect of:
"You laughed whn I said I was going to take the UK out of the EU 15 years ago, well you're not laughing now, are you?"
and
"None of you has ever had a real job".

As for the Scots strongly represented by SNP Sturgeon and others, how can they suddenly get down and beg on their knees and grovel like that, desperate to genuflect to the EU, especially after trying to cast-off the rest of the UK recently and gain independence, despite Sturgeon then offering to keep the Queen as 'Head of State'?
However, If the Scottish people think they are in charge of their own 'sovereign' country then they would really have to support the principle of an elected head of state.
And If the EU accepted the Scottish proposal then this may well encourage other separatist movements from EU member states, that has to be considered too.
Also I think 'the Scottish lot' have been asked to wait until the turmoil within the main UK political parties has stabilised before attempting any further overtures.
Do not forget that Mr. Shulz and his ally, Jean-Claude Juncker, the European Commission president, are partly to blame as the EU wooed the SNP to put pressure on David Cameron over a Brexit deal.
Let us indeed hope that Sturgeon and her politicking is kept at arms length for some time to come.
:)


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