The EU Referendum

[Tack13]

Hi All, I thought I'd start a thread to see what people in Hastings think about the referendum. I'm local myself and firmly in the Brexit camp.

So far I've seen nothing but scare mongering from Cameron and the campaign to stay. Figures seem to have been plucked from the sky, like 3m jobs are at risk if we leave. Where did that figure come from and why are these jobs at risk? The EU will impose tariffs if we leave. Will they? Have they said they will? If they do that then their exports to us will suffer, and we import far more from them than they do us. Further more we would impose tariffs on the EU, which would mean an increase in price for them. Wouldn't it be far more beneficial to everyone if we used the existing trade deal, to save years of negotiation, to trade with the EU, from outside the EU. There is nothing stopping that from becoming a reality. One of my favourites, purely for how ridiculous it sounds: Companies will leave the UK or reduce their operation from within it. Really? So far the only company that's "suggested" this is HSBC. There are no doubt others though. When I really think about this I ask myself, would a leading financial institution just up sticks and leave the UK, move to a country with a foreign language and employ 60, 70, 80% of it's staff from scratch? A financial institution that currently resides in the global centre of finance. London. I'm not so sure, but hey, you never know.....

On economic uncertainty: This seems to scare people the most. No body knows what will happen and markets suggest the UK will suffer economically if it leaves. I don't think for a minute there won't be a time of uncertainty, but I also believe that economic uncertainty is something that's always around the corner. Further more, when we were in economic crisis in 2008, who bailed us out? The EU? In times before that, who bailed us out? The answer is the same. We did, not the EU.

There are so many positives to leaving the EU: Regaining control of our borders, which in this time seems imperative to the well being of our infrastructure and security. Britain has survived for centuries, partly due to our natural defence of being surrounded by water. Being a member of the EU takes away that defence. Regaining control of global trade deals, which will stop our beloved NHS from being sold off to US multi billion dollar companies. There are so many other trade benefits to leaving the EU, too many to mention in one post. Regaining control of legislation across all sector. At the moment any bill passed in the Commons can be squashed by the European Court of Justice, if they think it interferes with EU treaties or EU trade etc. Regaining control of our waters. The fishing industry has lost 115,000 jobs thanks to the EU deciding where we can fish and how much of the catch we can bring to shore to sell. At the moment our trawlers are having to bring in fresh catch and destroying it, because it goes over our UK quota. Our farmers would be free to trade across the globe, they wouldn't be bogged down by EU trade legislation and their subsidies would easily be covered by the £8.5b net membership fee per annum the UK would get back. In fact, if you include what the UK get back from the EU in farm subsidies we'd have enough money to pay the farmers 4 times what they get back from the EU, and still have enough change to save the current Government the £1.2b it's chopping off disabled people's benefits. Amber Rudd voted in favour of that cut by the way...

Our nation is tiny, but despite this we are the 5th largest economy in the world. We are a member of NATO, the G8, G20 and we have a permanent seat on the UN Security Council. One of only 5 countries to have one. Our diplomatic influence is vast, stretching across all continents and we are at the centre of the Common Wealth. A club with over 50 countries in it. We would do just fine outside the EU.

I would really like to know some positives for staying in the EU. So far I can't see any, except we can all pop over to Europe for a holiday without filling in any forms. I think that's a small price to pay....

[Richard]

Hi Tack,

I guess you have to look at it from several angles:

1. Political
There has been more reform in favour of the working classes (minimum wage etcetera)
This may be no bad thing but many in the Labour Party are not convinced about staying in the EU.
Unelected bureaucrats dictate many of our laws from Brussels.
Our fisheries are being strangled.

2. Trade
Being in the EU expedites trade for big companies but there is too much red-tape for smaller companies to operate without barriers.
Brussels dictates which industries they wish to encourage and which they supress via strict quota regulations.
French farming seems to benefit hugely - perhaps their farmers protest more effectively.
Funny how we no longer hear about 'Butter Mountains', and similar from deliberate over-production.

3. Migration
a) Terrorism in other countries has forced migration, from outside EU Europe, like nothing before and lack of effective borders means less security.
Terrorists themselves can enter and pursue evil political agendas.
b) Externally sourced migration across EU Europe is shown, for one, by the Calais encampments allowed by the French for donkeys' years.
Criminals may be entering the UK as policing background checks is too costly and time-consuming to be done properly.
Any wars in foreign countries result in mass exodus into Europe as a 'safe haven'.
The EU is not fit for purpose in this respect.
c) Internal migration (inside EU member countries) is allowed without limit, according to EU Edicts, but it is irresponsible and we cannot just have an open door policy without limits.
d) Size of the EU
This has expanded too rapidly, now many eastern Europeans from low-wage economies are naturally clamouring to get into countries with higher better pay and standards.

4. Corruption
The accounts have never been scrutinised in Brussels and many political posts are part of a
massive 'gravy-train' of expenses and fees.

Conclusion.

I think it all boils down to migration and the admission of countries which upset the 'Apple Cart'.
Merkel (Germany) has promised to give Turkey a chance to join but that country has recently veered to becoming an oppressive state with more Muslim terrorist activity and lack of political freedom.
People can be beaten and imprisoned for protesting in public.
Terrorism will be imported if Turkey gets in, which is a shame as it was a very much toned-down Muslim country, not so long ago.
Turkey relies heavily on agriculture anyway and the rules from Brussels would be a shock to their system.

[Gerry Glyde]

I wonder if Tack is actually a member of an anti EU group/UKIP given the length and phrases of his/her contribution, and that they only joined this group on the same day as the post.

" At the moment any bill passed in the Commons can be squashed by the European Court of Justice, if they think it interferes with EU treaties or EU trade etc"
That is not strictly true. The court will issue guidance and comment if it is believed that there is conflict between existing agreements (that is we, the British have agreed something) and that it the British parliament might tweak a Bill to take account of what we, the British have already agreed. It does not quash a UK Bill or Act. It is not 'they' it is us along with others who sit on the court. If we sign any International Treaty regardless of the EU we might be in breach if we, the British then attempted to introduce a law in contravention of the Treaty.

'the current Government the £1.2b it's chopping off disabled people's benefits'.
Whilst this is true, it seems that it is ideological, rather than necessary given that the government has set very tight unnecessary (at present unachievable) goals.

"which will stop our beloved NHS from being sold off to US multi billion dollar companies"
Again this is an ideological issue, not particularly one that would be stopped by leaving the EU.

If anything the current conservative government (and in particular many of the anti EU Tories) are very likely to support further privatisation, given that some of them have consultancy or directorships with US Health companies. The Tories would likely agree a TTIP type agreement with the US outside of the EU

I, despite my comments am undecided. I voted No in 1975 -there is a photo on this site of me campaigning at the time.

Unlike you who state that you have not heard any good arguments in favour, both sides are making unsupported claims. The IN group as you say have made the claims you outline, equally the OUT group make claims as you have - neither of which have irrefutable evidence. Both sides make claims.

Sorry folks, this is long but IN/OUT is not simple

[moonjiver]

I appreciate people taking the time to post their takes on the complex EU argument - why don't the papers do that, instead of their own slanted tirades e.g Daily Mail?! But the issues are definitely not clear-cut, I'll enjoy reading through people's posts later over a pint ..

Of course there will be a period of transition, uncertainty and negotiating new trade agreements - so what? The Brits ran a whole empire for a very long time, we seem to have got somewhat lazy, need to recapture some of that hard work, resourcefulness and inventiveness of the past.

I myself think we should bring back the gunboats, bash the heads of these weird forieigners across the channel who eat garlic in bed and won't buy our goods. No, just joking, but surely a few real challenges again might be good for this country, unite people a bit ..

[Richard]

The EU wants to create an Empire and it keeps expanding by admitting any number of countries to its fold.
We now at least have an 'opt-out' clause against even closer union and against a common currency.
See how the latter nearly caused a break down in Greece, another plan that was not thought through carefully enough.
We have youngsters (Poles, for example) coming here to earn better wages and they will work harder and are seen to be more productive than their British counterparts.
That creates more unemployment amongst our own work-force who are not so keenly motivated by very low wages in a mother country.
We hear of Mafia groups controlling immigrant labour in Italy to work under appalling conditions and you can be sure the French are not a soft-touch for immigrants either.
So the influx of refugees is poorly addressed and the EU is struggling to manage.
The head of the EU was elected as a sole option on the ballot paper - is this democracy?

I would like to hear some positives now as the negatives are almost too numerous to mention.

[Gerry Glyde]

I will continue the 'garlic' theme in a light hearted manner when I have located an image!

[Gerry Glyde]

A humorous card that I spotted some time ago, based upon a 1921 film still

Perhaps the caption should end ....."we are not French"

[Richard]

Love it! Gerry.
...next you'll be telling us that once upon a time you could only get Olive Oil from the high street chemist, in tiny bottles

[moonjiver]

Hilarious! I actually quite like the continentals, but I once remarked that I loved Greek food - my mother frowned deeply and said "But they cook in all that OIL and stuff!"

[Richard]

I like 'Continentals' too but unfortunately many (especially those in the Euro-zone) have had 'Austerity' imposed upon them in return for bail-outs.
This means their Public Sector suffers and they have experienced public unrest and even though Britain is not in the Eurozone we seem to have caught the same Austerity Bug.

With 13 weeks to go before the nationwide vote, on 23rd June, the Polls have indicated a narrowing of the margins to nearly 50-50 both for and against.

So, what has the EU ever done for us?

•A CBI review suggests that the net benefit of EU membership to the UK could be in the region of 4-5% of GDP or £62bn-£78bn a year – roughly the economies of the North East and Northern Ireland taken together.

We pay in much less (and get rebates).

•The UK’s net contribution to the EU budget is around €7.3bn, or 0.4% of GDP. As a comparison that’s less than an eighth of the UK’s defence spend. The £116 per person net contribution is less than that from Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Germany and the Netherlands.