Hitler, Corbyn and Livingstone

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Richard
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Hitler, Corbyn and Livingstone

Postby Richard » Sun May 01, 2016 10:59 pm

Comments by Livingstone have stirred up a massive row in the media and the Labour Party.
Anti-Semitism on its own is unpleasant hostility and prejudice directed against Jewish people just for being Jewish.
Something that Hitler was guilty of as we all know.
Whereas Zionism refers to the movement to create a Jewish state in the Middle East and this was ongoing well before Hitler appeared on the scene.
It is perfectly reasonable to criticise Zionism, where it involves forced occupation and building of houses on the West bank, occupied by (Palestinian) Arabs, without necessarily being ant-semitic and this is nothing new since a number of Jewish settlements were created in Palestine between 1870 and 1897.
Zionism has probably only been seen recently as an agressive political wing promoting Jewish settlements in Palestine.
Israel was created in 1948 but of course not all Israeli's living there now are necessarily Jewish.
I am not sure exactly why Livingstone got around to invoking Hitler as a supporter of Zionism or why it has massively upset the apple-cart in the Labour Party.
Livingstone has always been controversial but perhaps some good will come out of this eventually.

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Derek Jempson
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Re: Hitler, Corbyn and Livingstone

Postby Derek Jempson » Mon May 02, 2016 6:12 am

As with all sensitive issues, there is an element of over-reaction here. Things are said that upon reflection were better left unsaid, but nevertheless the statements are defended, the positions held and the whole affair escalates beyond reasonable debate. You could almost call it, "Don't mention the War" syndrome.

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Gerry Glyde
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Re: Hitler, Corbyn and Livingstone

Postby Gerry Glyde » Mon May 02, 2016 3:16 pm

Richard, I understand that the person interviewing Livingstone raised the matter of Hitler to him and he responded with his wide (even if not well explained) historical knowledge.

This dispute is as much about the Labour Party as it is about anti-semiticism. Some Labour MPs and others will use it for political advantage. An extract on a blog about the issue perhaps explains the position of John Mann MP who was shouting and berating Livingstone. Mann was giving evidence at an Employment Tribunal concerning alleged anti-semiticism in the UCU -the University Lecturers Union. This does perhaps explain a lot about his activities

It is an extract from a Tribunal Paper and on Wikipedia. (Always sceptical of Wiki but does read as would a judgement).

"Mr. Mann appeared as a witness at the 2013 Ronnie Fraser vs. UCU employment tribunal hearing, in which Mr. Fraser accused the University lecturers’ union, the UCU, of anti-semitcism, the Labour MPs Denis McShane and John Mann testifying on Mr. Fraser’s behalf. The tribunal ruling commented: “Mr Mann led for them and the more conciliatory tone of Dr MacShane gave way to a somewhat hostile display in which Mr Mann made no bones about his view that the union was operating in an anti-Semitic way and that those at its head must address the problem. He did not explain what the anti-Semitic behaviour was supposed to have consisted of besides referring to the boycott debate and characterising any boycott of Israel or Israeli institutions as itself anti-Semitic. […] when it came to anti-Semitism in the context of debate about the Middle East, he announced, “It’s clear to me where the line is …” but unfortunately eschewed the opportunity to locate it for us”

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Richard
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Re: Hitler, Corbyn and Livingstone

Postby Richard » Mon May 02, 2016 6:21 pm

From what I hace read since, it appears that Livingstone was subject to a foul-mouthed showdown by Mann over his defensive response to MP Naz Shah's Facebook post, in which she had suggested re-locating Israel to the United States.
Livingstone was busy conducting a radio-interview on his 'mobile' at the time and yet somehow the press were in attendance in a grouping which looks increasingly like a staged set-up in public.

I get the impression Livingstone had very recently suggested that Naz Shah was only making an off-the-cuff remark, that should not have been taken too seriously, and that she was not an ant-semite, claiming that when Hitler won his election in 1932, his policy then was that Jews should be moved to Israel, even Hitler supported 'Zionism', adding 'before he went mad and ended up killing six million of them'.

There are also alleged elements of in-fighting inside the Labour Party with Mann having an agenda on the side of the Blairites who wish to damage Corbyn's side.
Corbyn decided the best thing to do was to suspend Livingstone.
Mann was also reprimanded by the Chief Whip for berating him in public.


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