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Re: Independence Day

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:07 pm
by northants1066
At least Farage can be credited with starting the process to get us out of the EU aka United States of Europe, and for that the British people should be forever grateful.
Corbyn on the other hand is a stigma on the once good name of Hastings.
How could a decent proud town like Hastings even contemplate inviting such an individual whose sole purpose is to set up a satellite of Russia, where the people are imprisoned on the whim of a despot President, and has been widely reported already today to care more for Hamas, Hezbollah, the IRA, and Chavez than his own country.

Did he condemn the murder of Eastbourne MP Ian Gow or the murderers at the Grand Hotel in Brighton. He should not be allowed anywhere near Sussex.

Re: Independence Day

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:29 pm
by Richard
I believe it was a well-organised band of backbench guerrillas, who put relentless pressure on David Cameron to hold an EU referendum - systematically boxing him into the commitment.

As for Corbyn, he is not to my liking at all - a grumpy, peevish old man, who has made a number of strongly anti-EU comments over the years and firmly supported the 'leave' referendum. He has no plans of his own, except to be a thorn in the side of the Conservatives.
Willing to talk to and defend terrorists, without pre-conditions but now refusing to parley with T. May unless 'no deal' plans are entirely ruled out.
Corbyn believes we should renegotiate with the EU, trying to get a customs union, in which we would be able to be proper trading partners.
In this he seems somewhat naïve, as it has already been tried and overwhelmingly voted down, in the House of Commons.

Re: Independence Day

Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:36 pm
by ColinL
Oh honestly Northants, do you understand anything about contemporary politics post 1989? Russia is no longer a left orientated regime; it is firmly rooted on the right of politics embedded in capitalism and shady deals between oligarchs who often come to Britain not to meet with left organisations but to sort out those shady deals using our legal system. These are the likes of Abramovich, now on a sanctions list, firstly seeking protection from the Swiss only to be thrown out but given protection by the Israelis.

Abranowich whilst here was I seem to remember supposed to be a governor of a Russian province. The likes of Deripaska gave hospitality by the use of a Mediterranean yacht to George Osborne and Peter Mandelson. Other Russian magnates (necessarily linked to Putin) give donations to the British conservative party and I seem to remember that Boris Johnson was selling tennis match access to them. A few hundred thousand £ of former Russian assets get GB residential status. Labour is not likely to be seeking status under the Russians.

You seem to mix up the need for caution and evidence of incidents with support for a regime.

Your prejudice shines through but blocks out evidence

Re: Independence Day

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:44 am
by Richard
Putin said, quite recently, that democracy was in crisis in the U.K. and that the suggestion of a second referendum, which idea he did not agree with, was further proof off this.
His comment, regarding democracy being thwarted, may be seen as hypocritical, considering his record, but Parliament seems yet unwilling to accept a no-deal Brexit, in the belief that it will harm the U.K. economically
Putin thinks we should go for a hard Brexit - maybe that would mean more trade for his country.

The democratic will of the people is being frustrated. Parliament believes it is acting in our better interests to avoid a hard Brexit, in which case the stark choices offered by our referendum were ill-advised or naïve.
Trump will not offer good trade deals until the customs arrangements have been settled, which look like remaining an issue, until at least 2022 and perhaps longer.
Labour refuse to enter into talks if they don't remove hard Brexit from the table.

Given the above I agree with Putin, democracy is in crisis and our choice to leave is being manipulated, to a degree previously undreamt of.


Re: Independence Day

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:10 pm
by seahermit
I felt for some time that there was no clear outcome to the mess of arguments put forward by all the different factions. Yes, democracy is under threat and the protracted rearguard action being fought by the Remain faction is doing its best to derail a clear majority vote to exit the EU.

But the fact remains that the country is very divided, also the intransigent "take it or leave it" stance of the EU over a deal is quite appalling - not a negotiated agreement but an imposed and dictated set of terms. There has to be further negotiation but at present few sides seem to be willing to move from their entrenched positions.

I long felt it would get worse before it got better! I don't think anyone knows how this will turn out, the predictions of chaos are propaganda but it seems inevitable that there will be some disruption to goods and services. Some will laugh - but I am doing some stockpiling. It seems a harmless and sensible precaution. Tins of this and that, rice, pasta, spuds .. But of course some of our services are closely linked to the EU - electricity, gas, banking - will they be vulnerable?

I would still rather endure a period of tightening our belts and shortages than stay in this abominable bureaucratic union. Worst path we ever took.

Re: Independence Day

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:27 pm
by Richard
I think we voted to leave in the general belief and understanding that this meant leaving the customs union, otherwise we would not be able to trade with the rest of the world to our, potentially greater, advantage. Plus we had to leave to be able to control immigration.
Theresa May promised to take the UK out of the EU’s single market and customs union, shake off the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice and free her government to forge its own trade and immigration policy.
The EU customs union currently imposes tariffs on external countries, in order to satisfy its rules and also the free migration of people is tied into that arrangement.
Jeremy Corbyn has said that he could back a deal keeping Britain in a customs union and protecting workers’ rights.

There is surely no point in staying in a customs union but, if we want to leave, the EU demand a 'backstop' agreement such that Northern Ireland will maintain "regulatory alignment" with the EU Single Market until a mutually satisfactory alternative arrangement can be put in place.

This means that N. Ireland remains tied to the EU until such time as the backstop has been resolved. There would be no time-limit and neither the D.U.P. nor the prime minister will agree to that as it could go on for many years to come.
The only alternative currently is a hard Brexit which would certainly mean a hard border with the Island of southern Ireland.
I can't really see how customs arrangement in Dover will be anything but dire, either way one looks at it, but really, we survived a WWII situation where German U-boats were targeting ships bringing produce across the Atlantic to Britain, I can't see how it could get any worse than that. Surely we are made of sterner stuff!! ;)

Re: Independence Day

Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:32 pm
by seahermit
Exactly. A few hiccups for a while over travel, food imports etc. is hardly anything which cannot be sorted out. The EU countries will not want to stop trading with the UK - will lose a lot of income otherwise.

Re: Independence Day

Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:35 pm
by Richard
We either stay in a deal, with N. Ireland, bound into a 'backstop' of unknown duration or we exit completely with a hard border most definitely being imposed there.
The former results in an inability to trade easily outside the EU and the latter means the 'Good Friday' agreement being broken, with unknown consequences from terrorists, as before.

I suggest it is likely that we will see a minimal tweaking of the back-stop and an agreement to withdraw gradually from the EU for many years to come.

"To be or not to be, that was the question"

Re: Independence Day

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:59 pm
by Richard
It seems that the EU actually want both their 'pound of flesh' and the money as well.
EU’s Donald Tusk now says there’s a ‘special place in Hell’ for UK Brexiteers who had no plan.
But this sounds like a misquote from Dante who despised people who never took sides.