Independence Day

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northants1066
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Re: Independence Day

Postby northants1066 » Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:18 pm

Thanks for trying to answer my question. What we do know is that the country was split into Regions and in England only London voted Remain. I believe even Wales voted Leave, only Scotland, no surprise there, and NI voted Remain.

cbe
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Re: Independence Day

Postby cbe » Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:29 pm

The constituencies for the EU referendum did not match up precisely with normal constituencies so it is difficult to be absolutely clear, but I too have seen figures suggesting that IF this had been a referendum it would have been 400 seats for Leave ergo a landslide.
A lot of the problem has been having a Remain PM and mainly a Remain cabinet going through the motions of 'negotiating' Brexit. That is why there had been no hard bargaining from our side and the inevitable delays have allowed our 5th columnists in Parliament and the media to do their utmost to overturn a democratic referendum decision. Northants you are exactly right - there is a simmering anger just beneath the surface, a 2nd 'referendum' would likely unleash problems on this country not seen since long before the 'poll tax' riots.

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Richard
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Re: Independence Day

Postby Richard » Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:28 pm

As for a democratic referendum decision, the actual process of Brexit, as promoted by T. May, demands more pain or more compromise, or both, than most of those who voted to leave the EU are prepared to put up with.
Brexit, as sold during the referendum, for which there was barely a majority, does not exist under the current 'deal'.
Either Brexit will fail and we will stay in the EU or it will succeed in some way we either do not want or had not anticipated.
T May's version of Brexit (the current deal) as it is, still stands no chance of being passed through the House of Commons as the EU is sticking to its principles and will (with typical arrogance) offer merely 'clarity'.

In fairness a referendum was never a good idea when an extremely complicated process of withdrawal was then to be put before the EU for prolonged discussions.
Of course they were not going to give us what we wanted when T. May was trying to keep us in the EU, in all but name.
She was the wrong person at the right time who went to the country but failed to secure a majority without the support of the D.U.P.

T. May also made a complete hash of 'Windrush' and allowed Amber Rudd to fall by the wayside.
That policy was a shameful episode and, despite some people thinking she has done her best for the country, with her complicated and protracted Brexit (Bremain) deal, we are now in a complete mess and desperately need a fresh pair of hands to grasp the nettle.

cbe
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Re: Independence Day

Postby cbe » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:24 pm

No time to answer at the moment Richard - will do so tomorrow. Once again I find myself in disagreement on most of the things you say.

cbe
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Re: Independence Day

Postby cbe » Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:04 am

The question on the EU referendum was VERY clear, asking us to make a decision as to whether we wanted to Remain in or Leave the EU. We decided to Leave. On a turnout of 72.21% Leave gained 51.89% of the vote to Remain's 48.11%. Barely a majority you say. MPs get elected by 1 vote and merrily go into the House of Commons. Welsh devolution was voted for by 50.3% on a turnout of 51.2% But those things don't matter do they. Winning margins only matter when the losers won't accept democracy. By the way that margin of victory in the referendum was 3.78% but if you look deeper you see that Leave winning figure was almost 8% more than the Remain figure.
People wanted to Leave and voted accordingly. They didn't want to partly leave or maybe eventually be allowed to leave. In spite of Cameron's best efforts and £9 million on leaflets to every household we voted Leave. In spite of lies from the then Chancellor and the politicised leader of the Bank of England we voted Leave. You will know too that all their lies amounted to nothing. But hey let's double-down and try to fool the public again.
Theresa May was put into that position to thwart Brexit. When she goes and I suspect it will be within the next few weeks, the powers that be will try their best the foist another Remainer into the position. Watch this space and be ready for the predictions from myself and northants should the will of the people be ignored.

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Richard
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Re: Independence Day

Postby Richard » Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:31 am

Okay, cbe, accepting the vote Leave was a majority, that still leaves the practicalities of how a Brexit would actually take place.
Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty still requires negotiation, such that a totally clean break is never so black and white in all reality.
The referendum was built on a false choice, you can't just exit and show a clean pair of heels, that was a myth promoted by a false promise from D. Cameron. ("Call me Dave").
We are still subject to setting out and agreeing the arrangements for our withdrawal, after discussions with member states, taking account of the framework for our future relationship with the Union and changes to customs and trade, scientific research agreements, crime and terrorism and many other issues.
To that extent we still have to deal with the high principles of the EU dominating events.
I suspect T. may will soon depart and our own pragmatic tendency will find a way to surmount the high-handed bureaucracy of the EU.

Whatever transpires, divorce is a messy business and you can be sure that the other party will want to wring maximum benefit, as we have seen already...

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ColinL
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Re: Independence Day

Postby ColinL » Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:03 pm

This is a general comment given that we cannot rewind history. By contrast to the 1975 referendum which was just a few years after joining was largely a simple issue for most people other than the politicos

After 45 years a Referendum was never viable option for voters to make given that there one very entrenched views on both sides. I expect most people voted as a matter of 'principle' and headline slogans rather the detail and intracacies . It is impossible to implement the decision of the 52% whilst taking into account the needs of the 48% as one side clearly blocks out the othrband vice versa

cbe
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Re: Independence Day

Postby cbe » Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:19 pm

ColinL the logic of what you are saying is that we cannot leave the EU unless everyone wants to?
Now you have touched on the 'original' vote that was of course to join a rather loose trade agreement and we were told at the time that it would never become politicised - lying from the outset. It has always been part of a World government plan. Obviously a plan spanning decades but a plan nevertheless. It is planned to have a country called Europe one day and that is why you see more and more power being given over to the EU bureaucrats until eventually a Country's own 'rulers' will be nothing more than a regional assembly.
The move to welcome refugees (eventually honestly changed to migrants) to Europe is part of this plan. A people with no heartfelt connection to a country. its history and traditions will more easily follow rulers of the superastate which is the EU rather then their adopted homeland.
I digress

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Richard
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Re: Independence Day

Postby Richard » Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:07 pm

Parliament is trying to cope with the wishes of the majority, as expressed in a people's vote, aka 'the referendum' and chaos has ensued ever since.
Another referendum will only make matters worse.
Regardless of the majority, we voted to leave the EU but T. May's negotiations have resulted in conditions imposed by the EU that many find unacceptable, so what is the alternative?
Do we just turn our back on the current EU trade and begin again on our own terms?
Does this even make sense without negotiated agreements especially when many British jobs are reliant on 'free' trade with the EU?

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seahermit
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Re: Independence Day

Postby seahermit » Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:25 pm

I voted for the EU in the 70's, as many people did, because it was presented as a trading bloc and as such seemed a sensible, logical and beneficial step. However, from quite early on, the EU began to morph into a quite different, political entity, even the trading regulations became oppressive, pervasive and petty. Agricultural and fishing practices increasingly favoured the French and the Spanish. One could say a lot more.

I don't believe in long-term conspiracies but certainly there was a change of mindset as France became more economically stable in the post-war years and Germany began to rebuild its economy and feel its strength in Europe.

The result can be seen as a fraud. Even the hurdles and punitive measures put in place to discourage the UK from leaving smack of a totalitarian attitude and a lack of respect for the rights and freedoms of a member state to pursue its destiny in its own individual way. All this is is totally alien to what Britain stands for and to what we fought the last world war for.

As for now .. I respected Theresa May but have ended up very disappointed. Is she well-meaning? Who knows? But I see her as misguided and very out of touch with what many British people feel and want ..and voted for in 2016. We do need a much tougher, more determined leader to stand up to the EU and maybe re-unite some factions in the Tory party. Do I see such a person? Oh God, don't ask!!


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