Corbyn will never be Prime Minister

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ColinL
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Re: Corbyn will never be Prime Minister

Postby ColinL » Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:50 am

"During the 2017 general election, the independent Channel 4 Factcheck service found very little difference between Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May over Europe"

Richard, what does this actually mean?
The interpretation of the statement is impossible to assess unless it is known exactly what questions were asked or posed to decide whether the two people are in agreement with the colour of the EU flag and EU passport holders lanes in ports of entry, - OR - EU sanctions against some non EU poorer states and being at the beck and call of Trump.

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Richard
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Re: Corbyn will never be Prime Minister

Postby Richard » Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:55 am

'Factcheck' is a service provided to ensure that claims made by politicians are based on fact.
At one time TV debates, for example, were set up to show a nominally balanced picture with politicians on both sides of an argument being given equal time to argue their case, over certain issues.
The problem was that both sides came up with different claims, example, the Prime Minister says that mental-health spending has increased to “a record £11.6 billion”. The Opposition leader retorts that spending “fell by £600 million" between certain dates.

Politicians may mislead the public —whatever their office, party, or stance on Brexit.

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/fake-ne ... cking-news

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ColinL
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Re: Corbyn will never be Prime Minister

Postby ColinL » Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:39 pm

Richard I am fully aware what fact check is. But you have still not answered exactly what it is that May and Corbyn agree upon 'the EU' as if it was a singular thing. For example they did not agree upon TTIP the EU attempted trade arrangement with the US that would have opened up a lot of our potential political decisions on trade to legal challenges from US firms. They have not agreed upon many sanctions issues and weapons exports, they have not agreed upon the wrist slap of the EU to the antisemitic Orban, Fidsez govt and his pulling away from democratic EU practices. The Tory Party is, I understand in the same voting bloc at Orban's party. Labour is not in the same group. No doubt they agree on some issues. Therefore a bland May & Corbyn 'little difference' is not as clear as you suggest, without further information

Seahermit, the only specific things I mentioned that are constituency issues for Corbyn were his attendance at the local event the day after his leadership election, the moving of the graveyard. Everything else, all his parliamentary activity, Early Day Motions, interventions in debate are about national and international issues. As for failure to deal with antisemeitism. that needs to be looked at factually. The leader does not have any control in a democratic party over the method of how complaints are dealt with. The previous administration, who were hostile to his election win in 2015, continued in post until 2018 when it became clear that the disputes team were failing to do their jobs. They were summarily refusing membership to, or expelling some people (on the left), whilst suspending others and then failing to process complaints in the more high profile cases, enabling complaints that 'Corbyn was failing to deal with antisemitism'. He made a direction to double the number of staff of the unit. A new team was appointed.

Many complaints were not about members. Mrs Hodge submitted a file of '200 antisemites'. It turned out that only 20 were members but the process of identity filing, checking delays real cases. The 20 members were not founded complaints anyway. One of the main protagonists let the cat out of the bag when he claimed that antisemitism was when a person said something that made him feel uncomfortable. Many of the complaints came down to people objecting to another but without being able to identify hatred, discrimination or prejudice against Jewish people. That is where the claims of failing to deal with a problem fall down if the vast majority of complaints do not constitute wrong doing. The JLM recently stated that when all the backlog is clear they have nearly 4000 more cases to submit. That sounds like they are intent on flooding the system rather than helping. They sent me a survey that could hve enabled me to put almost anything down that I did not like and they would submit it as a complaint

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Richard
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Re: Corbyn will never be Prime Minister

Postby Richard » Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:29 pm

I believe the quoted comment that Channel 4 Factcheck service 'found very little difference between Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May over Europe' meant in their opposition to a 'no deal' Brexit.
Additionally they both more recently agreed (after some hesitation) to support a second referendum in order to prevent a 'no deal'.

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ColinL
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Re: Corbyn will never be Prime Minister

Postby ColinL » Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:10 pm

Thank you for that clarification as it does not mean there was 'very little difference' on the issue of the EU. It is limited to the very tiny issue of 'what next'.

I clarify further that May put up several red lines. They were rejected by Labour. Labour proposed the automatic transfer of all EU based employment and consumer rights into domestic UK - and to enhance them. That was rejected by May and the entire Tory benches including 'rebel remainers'. Clearly there is considerable difference between them and to write the 'fact' comment that you did is misleading and untrue

cbe
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Re: Corbyn will never be Prime Minister

Postby cbe » Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:45 pm

Jeremy Corbyn is a 70 year old man still spouting the marxist rubbish you would expect from an 18 year old. He has also been a supporter of Hamas and the IRA. This is the man who invited Sinn Fein people to the HoC almost immediately after the Brighton bomb. It is a disgrace that Corbyn is an MP and the fact that someone can come on here and laud him is frightening

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Richard
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Re: Corbyn will never be Prime Minister

Postby Richard » Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:25 am

Labour wants workers rights to be EU-based, post Brexit.
Labour trade unions said they would want to see the government commit to putting future protection for workers’ rights in the Brexit agreement struck with the European Union, rather than in UK legislation that could be repealed by a future government.

However, Tory ministers have committed not to reduce the standards of workers’ rights already granted by EU law, and have also promised that Parliament will have a right to vote on whether the UK should adopt each new EU labour law in future. These proposals are set out in new draft clauses to the Withdrawal Agreement Bill (WAB), the legislation which will implement the withdrawal agreement.
The clauses would also oblige ministers to report to Parliament every six months on any new workers’ rights introduced by the EU, and put a motion before the house on what the Government intends to do about them. Parliament could then express a view about whether those new EU rights should be incorporated into UK law or not. However, the government would not be legally obliged to take any notice.

The logical place to commit to alignment with future EU labour rules is not in the Brexit plan but in the agreement on future trade with the EU, which will be negotiated over the coming years. The Government could commit now to dynamic alignment as a negotiating objective. It could even give that negotiating objective statutory status in the WAB.
It is not just the trade unions who care about this issue. EU member states care about it too, as they are concerned that the UK will seek to gain a competitive advantage by deregulating its labour market. A commitment to dynamic alignment could therefore be a valuable card in the negotiation on the future relationship. If the UK does want to play that card, it might also want to get something from the EU in return.

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ColinL
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Re: Corbyn will never be Prime Minister

Postby ColinL » Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:05 pm

CBE
What is 'frightening', about supporting an MP who has been working towards ending wars and conflicts all his political life? You may have been reading too much of the Mail spin on 'supporting' Hamas or the IRA, rather than the nuance of seeking to establish what can be done to obtain peace rather than more killing on BOTH sides in a conflict. And yes the truth is still seeping out of Security Services involvement in killings.

Thatcher was duplicitous in saying 'we don't talk to terrorists' whilst talking to them but banning broadcasters letting viewers and listeners hear their voices, although we could hear voices identical to them, pure grandstanding. The Yanks are now talking to the Taliban despite saying we don't negotiate with the enemy. By talking we have now had nearly 20 yrs of almost peace in NI. Of Corbyn helped in any way that is a good thing.

Your reply also indicates naievety when you suggest that someone should have grown out of Marxism at 18 and describing it as rubbish. You are entitled to disagree with it, but it is a legitimate political theory.

Perhaps you might explain why you are frightened, but without slogans, just straightforward adult political debate. In any event, Corbyn puts forward policies that would not have seemed out of place in the 1945 and 1964 governments when public housing, reasonable support for those in need, an element of public enterprise on essential structure, were not deemed to be anything other than cross party acceptable values

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seahermit
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Re: Corbyn will never be Prime Minister

Postby seahermit » Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:58 am

I am afraid I agree with CBE on that - I just don't understand how anyone can take Corbyn seriously as a politician and I find it alarming that some intelligent people do so. He has shown himself to be naive in many ways without a coherent political stance and he is certainly not some sort of Ghandhi-figure who has been bravely standing out against wars and conflicts - on the contrary, he has been a supporter of Marxism, surely one of the most vicious and ruthless political dogmas in history which has caused untold misery for millions. And I don't see what it is possible to say in defence of the IRA who, despite the years of so-called peace, are still very much a force in Northern Ireland and have been accused of violence, intimidation, organised crime-rackets, smuggling etc. in order to fund their organisation. The suggestion that Corbyn may have helped bring about the peace movement is surely ludicrous! There were numerous experienced politicians and mediators who persevered for years to bring a calm voice and some sanity into the turmoil which was N.Ireland during the 1980's - thank heaven it brought a political settlement, but Corbyn was a complete unknown at that time.

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ColinL
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Re: Corbyn will never be Prime Minister

Postby ColinL » Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:44 pm

Seahermit.You claim that it is ludicrous that Corbyn had any role in a dialogue about peace and that he was a complete unknown, yet he was very much in the forefront of the movement to oppose discrimination against republicans and Catholics. He is accused of inviting known terrorists to parliament, yet was a 'complete unknown'. The claims are contradictory. It is often the case that backbenchers or even non-politicians such as churchmen (usually men) build up confidences and that builds the basis for formal talks. He was acknowledged by Mo Mowlan as having played a role - but even she was almost erased from history by Blair and particularly Mandelson. Blair was embarrased into paying tribute to her at Labour conference. A former Corbyn staffer has recorded all the unpublicised trips that he made during the period.

You suggest that the IRA is very much in evidence in NI today. I am not sure that the PSNI would agree with you. There is a small dissident element who are active in isolated incidents but are not supported by the community at large. Both sides in NI have moved on even if some people in England have not. I hope that the NI government can reassemble and continue their work but all the time the DUP are supporting the UK govt that seems unlikely.

Neither you nor CBE have been able to explain what is frightening about a UK mainstream politician seeking an end to military conflict wherever it is. I agree that he is not a Ghandi or claiming to be similar but he has opposed foolhardy military escapades, whilst supporting our military personnel in that if they are sent into conflict they must be supplied with adequate kit and when discharged have good after care services. Too many ex military people end up on the streets homeless, dealing with drink and drug problems, relationship breakdown. Cameron issued troops with P45 returning from Afghanistan and then called for 30k volunteers to replace them that cannot be just


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