Corbyn will never be Prime Minister

[seahermit]

I agree with all of that!

Equally though I am very p****d off with all the arguing. The situation appears to change constantly but actually the most likely outcome remains a no-deal Brexit (and has been that from the beginning) - so why not just get on with it?

[ColinL]

Che. As usual failing to understand political philosophies. The EU a 'socialist monolith' !

It is the very essence of capitalist economics as set out in the many treaties that describe the central role of private business as against state controlled economy. It is why the Greeks hit the EU barriers three years ago when they wanted to enact the socialist policies of the government. There are more right wing and centre right wing govts in the EU than left wing.

[cbe]

Well if we think of any body which places an emphasis on 'worker's rights' over the rights of corporations and which believes VERY strongly in open borders what do we think of ?
If we think of Big Government writ large, what do we think of ? If we think of lack of financial accountability and an inability in past decades to get any firm of auditors willing to sign off the accounts, what do we think of? If we think of a spend, spend, spend mentality, what do we think of ?
In case you haven't got it yet Colin, it spells out Socialism. There is a reason why your friends in the 'Labour Movement' are fighting tooth and nail to stay in the EU and is NOT because the EU is conservative. By the way - the problem with Greece was all to do with the euro. Anyone who thought that a bloc containing both Germany and Greece could use a single currency and that there wouldn't be tremendous problems for the lesser economy knows nothing of basic economics

[Richard]

I thought the problem with Greece was that it lied in order to gain access to the Euro as its chosen currency. Its debt was far too high and continued to rise until the crisis erupted in 2008.
The EU imposed austerity measures to try to control the debt (caused by German Banks loaning money too freely in the first place).
That money being loaned was to allow Greece to overspend and buy German-made goods.
Germany owned the most debt as a consequence.

Since 2010, the EU and the IMF have granted more than €300billion (£255bn) in bailout loans to Greece and imposed hard fiscal terms on the country.
The bailout forced Athens to meet strict budgetary targets and receive frequent inspections.
This meant that the Mediterranean country suffered the longest recession of any advanced capitalist economy to date.
Newly resurfaced figures reveal that Germany, a leading nation in the Greek bailouts, has earned huge sums in interest payments since the crisis.

[cbe]

Greece adopted the Euro in 2001. The problem with Countries with very different economies being in the same currency union is that there has to be strict control on interest rates. Altering interest rates or indeed devaluing is one of the only 'weapons' a country has when their financial affairs hit the buffers, but when you are in a currency union you cannot do that. Greece/Spain/Portugal can never live comfortably with the same financial model as Germany. As regards 'baling' Greece out - the bale out was to save German banks who would have been massively affected if Greece had gone under. The EU is run by and for Germany.

[seahermit]

Well said, cbe. The suggestion that the EU is rather right-wing and conservative is ludicrous, it is liberal-minded/socialist in its philosophy and always has been. I am sure ColinL means well but, with respect, I don't pay too much attention to his statements, I find them rather far removed from the reality.

Several true things here. The problems in Greece did indeed result from a clash of differently managed economies, exacerbated by irresponsible spending plans by the Greeks. The German banks surely bear almost an equal share of the blame for excessive lending in the first place - not unlike the bank-lending crisis which erupted in the UK a few years back, but for a poor country like Greece it had more ruinous consequences.

Germany is a pretty well-managed economy but a good deal of state control nevertheless, no? Even so, they have had their problems, the ex-communist East Germany has been a huge drain on the national economy, which has been on a tightrope for some years, and the failure of the Greek economy would have been a disaster for Germany.

I quite agree that combining poor and rich economies into one currency union is an idealistic but unworkable idea - it has caused tremendous problems for Spain, Portugal and Greece (and Italy too) and is one of the reasons that the EU is seen as economically dysfunctional.

[Richard]

Why would an employer choose a unionised worker when somebody arriving from outside the country, looking for work opportunities, demands much less from them? This is why big businesses are so much in thrall to the EU, and the gig economy – which the left professes to hate – is booming.
The Labour Party has historically been against the European project, including leading figures such as Clement Attlee and Tony Benn. The greatest and most effective trade unionist of the past thirty years, Bob Crow, was totally against the EU and even set up a party to fight against it. Back then, the left in this country realised that the EU was heading in a deeply undemocratic direction, and that the concept of a free market and the free movement of labour was designed to smash the trade unions. It’s a real pity that the left seems to have forgotten its roots on this matter.

[cbe]

Isn't it strange then that today's Labour Party is in favour of free movement and if you listen to recent pronouncements unlimited immigration. Do they not care what effect that has on their trade union member's jobs? They care only about a new labour electorate since a great many of their former members have 'moved on' to more sensible parties.

[seahermit]

Whatever else is said against Boris Johnson, I have to say that I admire his tenacity and perseverance. He has battled hard against many opponents and apparently secured a deal against all the odds. It remains to be seen of course what the details of the deal actually spell out.

If the idiot MPs again fail to support him or vote for this new deal, they will be the only ones to blame during the ensuing mess. If the MPs generally don't like anything which is offered by the EU, what exactly DO they want?

[cbe]

We need to see the small print Seahermit - Fear that this is just May's deal with a tweaking on the Irish question. A tweaking which has not satisfied the DUP. The fact that nothing else seems to be sorted- payments/ fishing/defence/courts suggests it is May's deal with a little lipstick applied. My hope is that Boris has done this so that when he puts it to the vote on Saturday, the (probable) refusal by MPs will help him circumvent the Surrender Act from one Hillary Benn.That being the case we leave 31st Oct on WTO