Labour - a rethink

[seahermit]

No Richard, this is still not the point.

There will always be some misrepresentation and ridicule directed towards Corbyn by some of the press (as has also happened with Johnson coming from left-wingers etc.) - that is part and parcel of political argument, one just tries to avoid getting distracted by "noise" of that kind and concentrate on what is factual and evidenced.

But the last things Colin employs are reasoning and logic - apart from the fact that he himself becomes agitated and contemptuous if anyone contradicts his statements, Corbyn's acts and his own statements have been clearly documented, even filmed. They may have been misjudgements or open to interpretation - the fact is that they occurred. Colin's stance is that it's all Tory lies, which I find ridiculous and very irritating.

I am still wasting time explaining (again) what is self-evident. Tell me why I should bother?

[ColinL]

Richard, there is something on social media, twitter, facebook and the like that comes I think from the US libertarian right, it has a name although I am not up with these things. A person from a right wing point of view raises a contentious issue, without any facts or support and then waits for a response, from an alternative perspective, hoping it will be abrasive. The original poster then pleads with others that they are being bullied or abused and seeking support of others.

Thus they avoid discussion and debate on the original claim, which goes unchallenged and they claim victim status. In the seahermit and cbe's case they are the ones who have repeatedly resorted to personal criticism of me, my background or knowledge, whilst ignoring my request for them to provide some evidence of their claims. The seahermit has just done so again in the last couple of days, stating that I am unable to write in plain English, or uses 100 words instead of 12, questioning a legal background. None of that, whether justified or not has any relevance to the matter being discussed.

She complains that I have written things "oozing nastiness", yet fails to provide a single example, ( I asked again a couple of days ago) whilst regularly calling me a "lunatic", "barrack room lawyer" and the whole list that I put up about 10 days ago. Although I regularly cite independent evidence, she pleades that I do not use reasoning or logic or that I claim that everything is a Tory plot. She provides nothing by way of evidence to support her position. Now she pleads that she would love to debate the issue but cannot do so because of the alleged abuse.

It is a classic case of the social media thing outined above even if they are not aware of it.

(as an aside, in the Fraser v UCU case of which you are aware, the complainant's lawyers, Mischcon de Reya (Anthony Julius) produced 22, A4 volumes of 'evidence' against the Trade Union. I wonder if seahermit would say Julius was no sort of lawyer if he had to use all those words, where one volume would suffice!)

[ColinL]

oh seahermit, your "enjoyment" seems to be raising contentious issues of base personal opinion and then being unable to provide anything to back up your views.

"When challenged on factual situations, he just calls everyone liars..".
When has this ever occurred? Please provide ONE example.

I don't think you have ever challenged me on any factual matter.

[seahermit]

It's over, Colin, I have made it clear that the forum has become somewhat a waste of time. You don't need to keep bleating the same questions to me, just read my posts properly.

You are a very confused person. You don't seem to understand the difference between genders, you attribute statements to the wrong poster, you claim to be an ex-lawyer but cannot even express yourself well or accurately. I have never "complained of being bullied or abused or sought support from others". "Oozing nastiness", "barrack room lawyer" and "lunatic" were all phrases which originated with someone else, not myself.

Your posts are littered with "liars", "propaganda" "unsubstantiated claims" etc. That is the only way you seem able to respond to anyone who challenges your statements.

Cue for another tirade .. just go to bed Colin and sleep it off.

[Richard]

seahermit you did say:
"The Oxford English Dictionary without doubt probably defines "claptrap" as "The sort of pronouncements made by the world's barrack-room lawyers such as Colin" (joke, Colin, in case you missed it ..)"
A reference to it being jest is possibly seen by ColinL as a 'straw man tactic', i.e. suggesting he is something which he is not in order to provoke.
ColinL clearly stated the following some time ago but recently incorrectly attributed it to yourself:
2cbe. Identify any nastiness oozing or otherwise.
"He is a red-in-tooth-and-claw socialist and therefore nastiness oozes from him".

So, it's 'six of one and half a dozen of the other' as my mother used to say when we were bickering as kids.
If you ridicule or provoke someone over their political (or religious) beliefs then you can expect to stir up a hornets nest - as witnessed!
My parents also use to tell me that if you argue over politics or religion you will lose your friends.
If you put someone down disdainfully or as not knowing what they are talking about you are likely to tread on their toes. I would just turn the other cheek and give you enough rope but ColinL returns the compliment and teases you about your gender, etcetera.
Can we cut the crap and try to see each others point of view instead of resorting to a slanging match please?

[ColinL]

Seahermit, I have not been confused about gender (Just another thing to throw at me). Your writing style has always given me the impression of you as female and at some point I decided to tease, no more no less. There is nothing in your profile to say that you are male; therefore no confusion.

You are still wittering on about use of English language and spelling. This is not a literary site. Again just another brickbat avoiding the relevant matters of your failure to support your claims. The EU a 'left wing socialist organisation'. I can hear people laughing all over the place

[cbe]

I have been studying the MPs declaring their intention to stand for leadership of the party. Whilst looking through all this I noted that the party says that to vote in the leadership election you must pay £25 AND supply photo id. But the Labour party have been screaming blue murder that the suggestion that voters should provide voter id to vote in general elections is disenfranchising the poor. Shome mishtake Shurely.

[Richard]

Labour are now in turmoil, after a shift to the left, reduced to being a lobby group without a current leadership in touch with its roots that can win an election for some time, if ever, that has to be cause for a serious rethink.
The Labour leadership contenders really need to see where the centre-ground of politics is located and whether they can better gain ground from doing a Tony Blair and lurching to the right or sticking to the Unions and militant tendencies and failing to appeal to an electorate who are rather wary of such measures.

[cbe]

I agree with all that

[ColinL]

Richard, the current Labour policies would not be out of place under a Wilson or Attlee government, up dated to take into account other modern things. The narrative and that is all it is has been, has relentlessly pushed for four years of 'hard left' 'far left', 'Stalinist etc.

Yet on nationalisation the French German and Dutch nationalised rail companies own parts of ours. Germany is and has been run by the Conservative CDU for many years. Intervention in industry is one of the festures of German economic development. The Icelandic or it could be the Finish govt has just announced it is looking at the idea of a four-day week for the purpose of increased productivity and work life balance. On housing the Labour Policy on private renting for five years has been to change the nature of ASTs and Section 21 possession actions. Despite the Tories deriding it they have announced a Bill on those very things is to be issued in the early summer. Labour is not as it has been portrayed although I am looking forward to seeing the detail of the Housing Bill