Labour - a rethink

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seahermit
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Re: Labour - a rethink

Postby seahermit » Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:19 am

The continuous strikes in the 1970s were in part caused by political conflict between managements and powerful unions, not by management trying to extract unreasonable levels of productivity from work forces. Productivity was in fact generally low and a major problem in the UK in that period, despite massive investment into such state-owned (eventually) enterprises as British Leyland - in the latter case of course the equation notably did not work out, with disastrous results.

One of the reasons Corbyn's philosophy was not accepted by the electorate was because people feared a return of left-wing dogma and excessive state spending, dominating and disrupting the economy, instead of the application of sound economic principles. Thankfully, it will not happen. Thanks in fact to Mr Corbyn himself!

cbe
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Re: Labour - a rethink

Postby cbe » Mon Dec 16, 2019 5:51 pm

I can feel some sympathy for Labour supporters, they are aware that
they have lost four General Elections in a row, they have lost Scotland and
are gradually losing Wales. Losing is difficult enough , knowing that you cannot
ever win again must be very hard. This is the reason for the kicking and
screaming we hear at the moment. In the absence of any possibility
of gaining power we hear the traditional cry of 'direct action' from
the Labour thugs of Momentum and their fellow-travellers Antifa. Direct
Action means, of course, criminal damage, assaults (almost always against
the defenceless - cowards gonna coward) and 'marches'. Sometimes we are
notified by the MSM that there are X hundreds of thousand on one of these
'demonstrations' and without exception these numbers have been been
exaggerated by a power of ten (at least). Eventually the Common Purpose
Police 'Service' will start to do their job and rid us of these masked vandals
and then maybe the labour party will gradually start to be viewed in a
different light. But don't hold your breath.

northants1066
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Re: Labour - a rethink

Postby northants1066 » Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:35 pm

A consequence of Labour supporting Scottish Independence would mean that Parliament would become predominantly English MP's and therefore they would never get back in power.

I don't have the exact figures but a parliament without the Scots would be approx 590 MP's.
At present 360 of those are Conservative and not much chance of that changing in the next 100 years LOL.

I must admit to enjoying the current blame game within the Communist Party...oops sorry Labour Party.

Prior to last Thursday I was getting a bit worried but that all changed at one minute past ten when the exit poll was released. I went to bed much earlier than expected and slept soundly.


.

cbe
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Re: Labour - a rethink

Postby cbe » Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:49 pm

Yes I agree re Scotland, as I said on another thread, the loss of Scotland's Labour MPs
and the gradual reduction in the Welsh MPs means that Labour can never gain power again, outside of a coalition.
Who can such a coalition be with? The SNP will not support a possible Labour Government as
it will undermine what they have achieved in supplanting Labour North of the border. Greens
and Plaid Cymru can never have enough leverage to help Labour and the implosion of the LibDems was even greater than that of Labour. I am of the right, but I do not want a one party state. Where will the opposition come from?

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ColinL
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Re: Labour - a rethink

Postby ColinL » Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:43 pm

No you have not said anything to rebut my contribution. And now in your last sentence all you can manage is "obvious nonsense" and as expected an objection to a clear contribution - too many words!

You get so annoyed and frustrated that anyone should challenge your wild views

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ColinL
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Re: Labour - a rethink

Postby ColinL » Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:09 pm

cbe. You regurgitate this nonsense of 'Momentum thugs' but just like your little friend the sea hermit never manage to back up your wild claims with anything resembling facts, just what you have been told in the Mail, Sun and Express and shamefully some on the right of the party. I would expect at least one prosecution or even an arrest to be thrown across every tabloid front page, but strangely their reporters have not been able to either invent one or actually report one.

Antifa could not be more remote from Mometum than I can imagine. The latter run workshops on how to canvass, in person or telephone, training videos about policy issues, even such mundane things about the party structure, becoming a councillor or school governor, or public speaking. My 75 year old near neighbour, a member of the local church who cleans it and arranges its flowers, sings in a local choir is a Momentum member hardly the profile of a thug.

By contrast a report the other day and endorsed in a newspaper states that Stephen Yaxley-lennon ( aka 'Tommy Robinson') has joined the Tory Party. Now he is a convicted thug several times over.

You might want to concentrate on real thugs instead of imaginary ones.

Public protest and marches is at the heart of our system as was witnessed by the bedraggled 50 or so brexit party marchers from Jarrow to London. Tellingly the party leader, man of the people, young Nigel did not want to spoil his best brogues and so he drove all the way and was able to avoid the 'low grade' people

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seahermit
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Re: Labour - a rethink

Postby seahermit » Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:21 am

I go along with much of cbe's comments on the current internal agonies of the Labour party. But I don't feel that much sympathy is deserved - politics is tough, those participating know the rules of the game and know that failure and defeat come to those who make misjudgements .. or ignore the electorate's wishes.

We have seen the "direct action" thing before of course - in the 1970's strife, in the 1980's (remember the violence of the miners' strike and even a couple of murders of "scabs"?), the poll tax riots (I and some friends had to barricade ourselves in a cafe near Trafalgar Square - not a joke, it was completely terrifying). Later there was the Militant Tendency challenging Neil Kinnock .. A lot of the defiance of law, intimidation etc. seems to come from the extreme left. Haven't heard much about jackboots marching in London streets.

Currently, apart from calls for direct action starting to be heard in some quarters, there has of course been the appalling online abuse and venom directed against MPs, Jewish Labour MPs, anyone who publicly complains or is a whistleblower etc. And, contrary to Colin's
assertion, there have already been a NUMBER of arrests and some convictions for harassment and death-threats.

I am not going to detail these things because I can't be bothered and it is all in the papers, the online news agencies and various other media sources. For anyone who wants to research and verify it.

cbe
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Re: Labour - a rethink

Postby cbe » Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:56 am

I believe the Unions are clear of Labour party involvement but the other way around is a completely different story. McCluskey will have the major say in who the new leader is.

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seahermit
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Re: Labour - a rethink

Postby seahermit » Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:34 am

Yes, that is a fair assessment and I should have made myself clearer on that point. There is still the "closeness" between the unions and the Labour party, and the overlap of interests, but actual influence flows largely from the direction of the unions.

Labour have again a real problem distancing themselves from the extreme left and there is likely to be a protracted struggle between moderates and the left wingers. Most of the current contenders for leadership, to replace Corbyn, are almost completely unknown and without experience on the front benches. Even if they get anywhere, it will be a major task for them to change the direction and the whole ethos of the Labour party.

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ColinL
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Re: Labour - a rethink

Postby ColinL » Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:51 pm

little seahermit again making implications of guilt and responsibility where none wxists.
She asserts that contrary to 'Colin's assertion..(sic) there have been a number of arrests, convictions ". You know you have no evidence in respect of what I said and you mask it by saying you cannot be bothered to list them. At no time have I asserted that there have not been death threats against Mps or harassment or intimidation. I have challenged you to come up with any credible evidence of convictions of Labour members that can justify your hysteria. You will easily find them on front pages of the Mail and Sun. It is not up to me to prove your claims and I cannot prove a negative. You make the statement you back it up. You are a fraud.

Berger was subject to death threat. It was from John Nimmo a well known Tyneside right wing activist. Thers have been three or four other convictions of people from the right of politics against the same MP. None from Momentum. Not one conviction or finding of wrong doing by Tyneside Momentum. You can I assume prove that there have been.

You conveniently forgot to comment on the real thug Yaxley Lennon with many convictions for violence and one for fraud. He as I reported is said to have joined the Tories. His numerous convictions are widely reported.

You just like stirring hate without evidence in the hope that some mud sticks.


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