'But why then do we not hear of gangs of white criminals doing these things AND being allowed to get away with it for decades?'
But we have seen it all before in the Church and elsewhere, for decades, cbe, what don't you understand about that?
What stopped the Police from intervening then?
Our entrenched beliefs that our religion is above blame?
Hastings Forum
BBC
Re: BBC
We tend not to read reports of 'white' gangs and I seem to remember Richard provided a citation. A report, if the perpetrators are white will normally say 'a gang ',whereas if the persons are not white will say black or Asian - even when that designation is irrelevant to the issue.
Just yesterday there was a report of sexual abuse of boys by a gang at S Paul's school. It did not describe them as being white although I expect that everyone of the perpetrators was in fact of that ethnicity
Just yesterday there was a report of sexual abuse of boys by a gang at S Paul's school. It did not describe them as being white although I expect that everyone of the perpetrators was in fact of that ethnicity
Re: BBC
Richard - re abuse carried out by members of the church - they are evil people who should be strung up by the neck - but I am talking about organised GANGS - why will you not see that, why do you keep trying to obfuscate - I have said several times - leave that to Colin.
There are sick criminals, who sexually abuse children, in all walks of society. We all agree on that? Good. Now if you are going to answer keep it to the issue I keep raising, but you and Colin always want to avoid. Organised gangs, almost always consisting of Muslim men, of mainly Pakistani heritage. You will not be sent to the Gulags for telling the truth - we are not yet (quite) in 1984.
There are sick criminals, who sexually abuse children, in all walks of society. We all agree on that? Good. Now if you are going to answer keep it to the issue I keep raising, but you and Colin always want to avoid. Organised gangs, almost always consisting of Muslim men, of mainly Pakistani heritage. You will not be sent to the Gulags for telling the truth - we are not yet (quite) in 1984.
Re: BBC
The pinpointing of Pakistani Muslims and whipping up of hate, which seems to have happened in the mass-media, won't do anything but make matters worse cbe.
We don't want to fuel extreme right-wing agitators.
There may be a correlation between waves of gang rape by immigrants in Europe generally and their racial origin may be involved. So, how can you act on that identity even if it is true, which it probably is in the majority of cases?
Perhaps treat them as a form of religious fundamentalist terrorist group and then take steps to identify and deport the worst types, or re-educate the offenders, punish the Police and care homes and other branches who failed the victims?
Educate the girls at risk and stop them coming into contact with suspects?
We don't want to fuel extreme right-wing agitators.
There may be a correlation between waves of gang rape by immigrants in Europe generally and their racial origin may be involved. So, how can you act on that identity even if it is true, which it probably is in the majority of cases?
Perhaps treat them as a form of religious fundamentalist terrorist group and then take steps to identify and deport the worst types, or re-educate the offenders, punish the Police and care homes and other branches who failed the victims?
Educate the girls at risk and stop them coming into contact with suspects?
Re: BBC
As I have said a few times - it is obviously a cultural thing. All those in the
gangs follow the same culture. In every case there must be some family
members whp know or suspect something but we see and hear very little
of information coming from within the Muslim groups - mosques or otherwise.
THAT is where the information/education has to come from but if we pretend
that this group are not the prime movers in this it will continue unabated.
gangs follow the same culture. In every case there must be some family
members whp know or suspect something but we see and hear very little
of information coming from within the Muslim groups - mosques or otherwise.
THAT is where the information/education has to come from but if we pretend
that this group are not the prime movers in this it will continue unabated.
Re: BBC
Good idea to target the Mosques to educate decent people and ask the leaders to denounce such behaviour for the mainly Muslim gangs, but do the CSE characters always go to Mosques? if it really is an "Asian" thing, how come Indians don't do it? If it's a "Pakistani" thing, how come an Afghan was convicted in the Rochdale case? And if it's a "Muslim" thing, how come it doesn't seem to involve anyone of African or Middle Eastern origin? The standard response to anyone who questions this is: face the facts, all those convicted in Rochdale were Muslim. Well, how about if all the members of a gang of armed robbers were white; or cybercriminals; or child traffickers? (All three of these have happened.) Would we be so keen to "face the facts" and make it a problem the whole white community has to deal with? Would we have articles examining what it is about British-ness or Christianity or European-ness, that makes people so capable of such things?
Some of the young girls may well have offered sex in exchange for alcohol, drugs or other 'favours'. Some may have incurred a drug debt with the gang and were told they could pay it off by having sex.
In terms of policing, there were no operational targets for CSE in South Yorkshire Police, and property crimes such as burglary and vehicle theft were prioritised over CSE investigations. Victims were also often criminalised – in one case, a victim was arrested for being ‘drunk and disorderly’ when found in a derelict house with a group of men against whom no action was taken. Cases brought to the police were often not properly pursued because victims were not judged to be credible witnesses. Victim-blaming attitudes were common amongst both police and social workers, who frequently described children and young people who were being sexually exploited as ‘promiscuous’, ‘asking for it’, or ‘sexually available’, with many interpreting relationships between men and girls as young as 11 as consensual. Such institutional failures won’t be addressed by seizing on ‘political correctness’ as the central problem.
Even the Child Protection and Online Protection Centre (Ceop), which has also studied potential offenders who have not been convicted, has only identified a handful of Asian gangs – and they are spread across the country. But, despite this, a new stereotype has taken hold: that a significant proportion of Asian men are groomers (and the rest of their communities know of it and keep silent).
The main cultural relevance in this story is that vulnerable, often disturbed, young girls, regularly out late at night, often end up in late-closing restaurants and minicab offices, staffed almost exclusively by men. After a while, relationships build up, with the men offering free lifts and/or food. For those with a predatory instinct, sexual exploitation is an easy next step. This is an issue of what men can do when away from their own families and in a position of power over badly damaged young people.
In the 1950s, West Indian men were labelled pimps, luring innocent young white girls into prostitution. By the 1970s and 80s they were vilified as muggers and looters. And two years ago, Channel 4 ran stories, again based on a tiny set of data, claiming there was an endemic culture of gang rape in black communities. The victims weren't white, though, so media interest soon faded.
The urge to vilify groups of whom we know little may be very human, and helps us bond with those we feel are "like us". But if we are going to deal with the world as it is, and not as a cosy fantasyland where our group is racially and culturally supreme, we have to recognise when sweeping statements are false.
Finally, It might be worth noting that BBC Radio 4 reported in their PM programme on 19 October 2018 that in 2008, the Home Office sent a circular to all police forces in the country stating: "as far as these young girls who are being exploited in towns and cities, we believe they have made an informed choice about their sexual behaviour and therefore it is not for police officers to get involved in."
I still believe that the failures by Police, Care Home authorities, Social workers have a lot to answer and pin-pointing the ethnicity/religious beliefs of the perpetrators alone is unhelpful.
Some of the young girls may well have offered sex in exchange for alcohol, drugs or other 'favours'. Some may have incurred a drug debt with the gang and were told they could pay it off by having sex.
In terms of policing, there were no operational targets for CSE in South Yorkshire Police, and property crimes such as burglary and vehicle theft were prioritised over CSE investigations. Victims were also often criminalised – in one case, a victim was arrested for being ‘drunk and disorderly’ when found in a derelict house with a group of men against whom no action was taken. Cases brought to the police were often not properly pursued because victims were not judged to be credible witnesses. Victim-blaming attitudes were common amongst both police and social workers, who frequently described children and young people who were being sexually exploited as ‘promiscuous’, ‘asking for it’, or ‘sexually available’, with many interpreting relationships between men and girls as young as 11 as consensual. Such institutional failures won’t be addressed by seizing on ‘political correctness’ as the central problem.
Even the Child Protection and Online Protection Centre (Ceop), which has also studied potential offenders who have not been convicted, has only identified a handful of Asian gangs – and they are spread across the country. But, despite this, a new stereotype has taken hold: that a significant proportion of Asian men are groomers (and the rest of their communities know of it and keep silent).
The main cultural relevance in this story is that vulnerable, often disturbed, young girls, regularly out late at night, often end up in late-closing restaurants and minicab offices, staffed almost exclusively by men. After a while, relationships build up, with the men offering free lifts and/or food. For those with a predatory instinct, sexual exploitation is an easy next step. This is an issue of what men can do when away from their own families and in a position of power over badly damaged young people.
In the 1950s, West Indian men were labelled pimps, luring innocent young white girls into prostitution. By the 1970s and 80s they were vilified as muggers and looters. And two years ago, Channel 4 ran stories, again based on a tiny set of data, claiming there was an endemic culture of gang rape in black communities. The victims weren't white, though, so media interest soon faded.
The urge to vilify groups of whom we know little may be very human, and helps us bond with those we feel are "like us". But if we are going to deal with the world as it is, and not as a cosy fantasyland where our group is racially and culturally supreme, we have to recognise when sweeping statements are false.
Finally, It might be worth noting that BBC Radio 4 reported in their PM programme on 19 October 2018 that in 2008, the Home Office sent a circular to all police forces in the country stating: "as far as these young girls who are being exploited in towns and cities, we believe they have made an informed choice about their sexual behaviour and therefore it is not for police officers to get involved in."
I still believe that the failures by Police, Care Home authorities, Social workers have a lot to answer and pin-pointing the ethnicity/religious beliefs of the perpetrators alone is unhelpful.
Re: BBC
Richard - you skim over so many things in the one reply so forgive me if/when I
only comment on odd ones. 'Asian' = that is what I have been saying - by keep reporting 'Asian' they are tarring all Asian men. They are predominantly Muslim men of Pakistani origin. it is important to stress it, then the reasons can be looked at, but the more we talk of 'whipping' up racial hatred' etc etc the more we are trying to suppress truth being spoken.
It is not racist to say that the people who I have said are the vast majority of this kind of culprit. It is racist to say that we MUSN'T speak of crimes and identify those people BECAUSE of their ethnicity.
As regards the instruction to 'ignore'. I posted this several days ago. The person/people in the Home Office who sent out such a circular is/are guilty of malfeasance and should have faced the consequences. Senior officers who acted on that instruction knowing it to be wrong i.e. telling them to ignore rape/torture/death threats/paedophilia should have been dismissed, is not prosecuted.
You touch on an Afghan etc etc - I have said constantly mainly/mostly etc etc etc etc etc
only comment on odd ones. 'Asian' = that is what I have been saying - by keep reporting 'Asian' they are tarring all Asian men. They are predominantly Muslim men of Pakistani origin. it is important to stress it, then the reasons can be looked at, but the more we talk of 'whipping' up racial hatred' etc etc the more we are trying to suppress truth being spoken.
It is not racist to say that the people who I have said are the vast majority of this kind of culprit. It is racist to say that we MUSN'T speak of crimes and identify those people BECAUSE of their ethnicity.
As regards the instruction to 'ignore'. I posted this several days ago. The person/people in the Home Office who sent out such a circular is/are guilty of malfeasance and should have faced the consequences. Senior officers who acted on that instruction knowing it to be wrong i.e. telling them to ignore rape/torture/death threats/paedophilia should have been dismissed, is not prosecuted.
You touch on an Afghan etc etc - I have said constantly mainly/mostly etc etc etc etc etc
Re: BBC
cbe, I think we can all agree that a crime is a crime, regardless of the perpetrator(s).
Yet your commentary circles around the issue of race, or whether or not we should be talking about race.
There are broader issues at work here and scapegoating ‘Muslims’ also lets the state off the hook for years of under-funding and privatising of essential services. Children in care are also disproportionately represented amongst CSE victims – in Rochdale, as elsewhere the majority of children’s care homes are privately run, with property values and cost cutting inevitably prioritised over the needs of vulnerable children. The broader structural issue of how austerity has failed victims is overlooked.
The bottom line is that gang grooming is not the only way child sexual exploitation happens and when one starts looking at differing patterns of abuse, entirely different influences and circumstances appear – along with many more victims.
It’s all too convenient to call foul on Pakistani Muslim communities whilst completely ignoring the fact that there have been thousands of abuse convictions over the same time span of these grooming gangs.
The whole sorry show needs to be aired and analysed properly to offer lessons in child protection. Some people don’t understand data, evidence or proof.
Yet your commentary circles around the issue of race, or whether or not we should be talking about race.
There are broader issues at work here and scapegoating ‘Muslims’ also lets the state off the hook for years of under-funding and privatising of essential services. Children in care are also disproportionately represented amongst CSE victims – in Rochdale, as elsewhere the majority of children’s care homes are privately run, with property values and cost cutting inevitably prioritised over the needs of vulnerable children. The broader structural issue of how austerity has failed victims is overlooked.
The bottom line is that gang grooming is not the only way child sexual exploitation happens and when one starts looking at differing patterns of abuse, entirely different influences and circumstances appear – along with many more victims.
It’s all too convenient to call foul on Pakistani Muslim communities whilst completely ignoring the fact that there have been thousands of abuse convictions over the same time span of these grooming gangs.
The whole sorry show needs to be aired and analysed properly to offer lessons in child protection. Some people don’t understand data, evidence or proof.
Re: BBC
I never circle around anything. If you want to talk about sexual abuse of children in its entirety, do so, another thread is waiting to be opened. I have been talking about one particular, organised section of it. A section that went unreported and uninvestigated for decades. There is one reason it was (and to a certain extent still is) unreported and that is for the same reason you keep skirting around it. You are all frightened of being called racist or of maybe saying the 'wrong thing' amongst your peer group.THAT is the reason these scum get away with it.
If you are prepared to accept that these gangs have been operating without hindrance for decades and are unafraid of describing the perpetrators of these gangs then we can continue. If you want always to broaden the issue I will leave you to it OR I will join you on another thread.
If you are prepared to accept that these gangs have been operating without hindrance for decades and are unafraid of describing the perpetrators of these gangs then we can continue. If you want always to broaden the issue I will leave you to it OR I will join you on another thread.
Re: BBC
cbe,
These are lots of young kids in difficult circumstances, who have fallen through the net, failed by society at large and picked over by wanton male lust and degraded further inside the trappings of a certain cultural 'gang' setting.
Yes! Operating without hindrance for decades.
Outside that miserable diaspora, the Church of England and Roman Catholic institutions have produced predators on little boys. We know this goes on but it does so behind closed doors and is difficult to police, the Church hierarchy closes ranks and hushes it up.
We have ourselves to blame for allowing the conditions to be favourable.
Clearly the Pakistani gangs are but one cog in the machine, I feel that I have patiently explained why that has come about.
If you feel that race alone is a factor and have nothing else in mind to deal with it, apart from asking the Mosque leaders to address the issues, then I feel you are wasting your time here.
I am completely unafraid of describing the perpetrators of these gangs, I have said crime is crime and that I believe the legal definition lends no importance to race cult or creed.
The issues of such crime(s) cannot be solved by targeting the perpetrator's race or origins alone, surely that is clear by now.
These are lots of young kids in difficult circumstances, who have fallen through the net, failed by society at large and picked over by wanton male lust and degraded further inside the trappings of a certain cultural 'gang' setting.
Yes! Operating without hindrance for decades.
Outside that miserable diaspora, the Church of England and Roman Catholic institutions have produced predators on little boys. We know this goes on but it does so behind closed doors and is difficult to police, the Church hierarchy closes ranks and hushes it up.
We have ourselves to blame for allowing the conditions to be favourable.
Clearly the Pakistani gangs are but one cog in the machine, I feel that I have patiently explained why that has come about.
If you feel that race alone is a factor and have nothing else in mind to deal with it, apart from asking the Mosque leaders to address the issues, then I feel you are wasting your time here.
I am completely unafraid of describing the perpetrators of these gangs, I have said crime is crime and that I believe the legal definition lends no importance to race cult or creed.
The issues of such crime(s) cannot be solved by targeting the perpetrator's race or origins alone, surely that is clear by now.
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