You raise a different issue - stop and search - you probably spotted in the papers this week
that this had been re-introduced in the North West with a lot of success.
If there was a spate of crime mainly involving old men with fair (but thinning) hair I would
not in the least be annoyed at being stopped and searched. I would assume that the police
were doing the obvious thing.
Hastings Forum
Corbyn NEVER lets you down
Re: Corbyn NEVER lets you down
I raised stop and search as one possible outcome of racial profiling.
cbe, if you were under investigation because of your suspected likelihood to commit crimes, based on your racial profiling and country/region as a target group, then you may be less than happy.
How else do you intend the police to act upon profiles of those whom you suggest are more likely to commit CSE crimes?
cbe, if you were under investigation because of your suspected likelihood to commit crimes, based on your racial profiling and country/region as a target group, then you may be less than happy.
How else do you intend the police to act upon profiles of those whom you suggest are more likely to commit CSE crimes?
Re: Corbyn NEVER lets you down
If you don't mind me saying. that is a ridiculous question. We are talking stop and search. You cannot stop and search and discover a paedophile. We seem to switching topic to topic to suit desired outcomes.
Re: Corbyn NEVER lets you down
cbe, you admit that profiling cannot be used to discover a paedophile.
So then what is your point when you refer to so-called 'grooming gangs' being mainly composed of people of a certain type? (Pakistani men of a certain region)
Evidence sufficient to pin guilt on an individual may be provided by a fingerprint alone, but not in all crime categories as it may not be relevant. I think that does not need further explanation.
But there is certainly no evidence that racial profile alone will ever prove guilt in any crime category, so at best it is a red-herring. At worst it is a form of racism.
So then what is your point when you refer to so-called 'grooming gangs' being mainly composed of people of a certain type? (Pakistani men of a certain region)
Evidence sufficient to pin guilt on an individual may be provided by a fingerprint alone, but not in all crime categories as it may not be relevant. I think that does not need further explanation.
But there is certainly no evidence that racial profile alone will ever prove guilt in any crime category, so at best it is a red-herring. At worst it is a form of racism.
Re: Corbyn NEVER lets you down
Oh cbe.
Just with a wave of your arm you dismiss the detailed work of Jay as excuses. They are not excuses they are evidence of a multiplicity of factors that came together to affect the issue of sexual abuse, along with all the other social work cases that confront the council.
For you with your pre-determined reasoning, do not wish to analyse what Jay says or come up with an alternative arguable conclusion, just simplicity , it is race. So Richard has correctly identified your view, despite your attempt to deny it. I would love to watch you being cross examined on some sort of Inquiry with you saying, 'I am right because I am right' with lots of bluster and bluff.
I was not able to read Brown's opinion as I don't register on their site
Ps stop and search may well identify a person as a paedophile if they have items on them of relevance to such offences. Again you are trying to wiggle out of being shown to be wrong
Just with a wave of your arm you dismiss the detailed work of Jay as excuses. They are not excuses they are evidence of a multiplicity of factors that came together to affect the issue of sexual abuse, along with all the other social work cases that confront the council.
For you with your pre-determined reasoning, do not wish to analyse what Jay says or come up with an alternative arguable conclusion, just simplicity , it is race. So Richard has correctly identified your view, despite your attempt to deny it. I would love to watch you being cross examined on some sort of Inquiry with you saying, 'I am right because I am right' with lots of bluster and bluff.
I was not able to read Brown's opinion as I don't register on their site
Ps stop and search may well identify a person as a paedophile if they have items on them of relevance to such offences. Again you are trying to wiggle out of being shown to be wrong
Re: Corbyn NEVER lets you down
Colin - anyone disagreeing with your red-eyed, power-to-the-people, it was Fatcha's fault views will ALWAYS be wrong. There is therefore no chance that I will be right on anything. I pointed out that the one paragraph you highlighted in the Jay report WAS just councillor's excuses.
Report's results are very often just as good as what goes in and SOME reports merely produce the pre-determined outcome - are you listening Ms Chakrabarti?
Report's results are very often just as good as what goes in and SOME reports merely produce the pre-determined outcome - are you listening Ms Chakrabarti?
Re: Corbyn NEVER lets you down
Richard - the problem with the 'grooming' gangs was as clear as the nose on your face. Very young white girls seen in vehicles with much older (yes - coloured) men. There were reports coming out of Policemen speaking to such men and still doing nothing about it.Indeed there was a case in the paper this past week where one of the perpetrators WAS a policemen. There were reports of constant warnings to the authorities by social workers (witness the Rochdale case which was turned into a docudrama)
People KNEW what was going on and chose NOT to act. A lot has been made about paedophiles in the white community too but the difference is that (a) the vast majority of the gangs involved were NOT white - and that has been my theme throughout - and (b) there does not appear to be dozens of case where the authorities have turned a blind eye to a white perpetrator
People KNEW what was going on and chose NOT to act. A lot has been made about paedophiles in the white community too but the difference is that (a) the vast majority of the gangs involved were NOT white - and that has been my theme throughout - and (b) there does not appear to be dozens of case where the authorities have turned a blind eye to a white perpetrator
Re: Corbyn NEVER lets you down
Of course the Police have more often than not used profiling to narrow down the perpetrator(s), probably starting way back in Victorian times. 'Jack the Ripper' committed five extremely brutal slayings of female prostitutes, between August and November of 1888, in the Whitechapel area of London and was profiled by the Police as a person with medical knowledge by the manner in which he wielded a knife, cutting their throats first and then removing organs.
The killer was first called the Whitechapel Murderer and Leather Apron.
The Ripper case was the first serial killer story in history to cause a widespread media frenzy and that was due to the proliferation of inexpensive broadsheet newspapers.
A police investigation into a series of eleven brutal killings in Whitechapel up to 1891 was unable to connect all the killings conclusively to the murders of 1888.
In the case of so-called 'grooming gangs' one profile alone does not cover a multitude of gang offences.
According to a report by 'Hansard' we know that between April 2017 and March 2018 the police recorded over 16,000 cases of rape of children under the age of 16 in England and Wales. This implies 44 child rapes per day. Ministry of Justice statistics over the same period suggest that few of these rapes resulted in a criminal conviction. In 2017, only 544 rapists were convicted. What is more, victims and their families often have to endure lengthy delays and uncertainty, both before and after court hearings. In 2017 the median time from offence to completion for cases of child rape was 2,115 days. That is close to six years. It is important to stress that these figures do not necessarily relate to grooming gang offences, but the scale of abuse and the time it takes to prosecute offenders raise serious questions about the criminal justice system’s ability to meet the needs of victims.
Additionally, whilst Child sexual exploitation occurs in many places. Some estimate that grooming gangs operate in 73 towns, from Plymouth to Liverpool, from Cambridge to Glasgow, there may be many hundreds of victims on a waiting list, with an average waiting time of seven months. Additional funding is clearly needed for children and young people’s services to meet the needs of victims.
In the first paragraph from Hansard it may reasonably be implied that the Police need to find evidence sufficient to gain a conviction in Court, suggesting that a girl's statement of abuse or the association with a man in a taxi cab is really not sufficient evidence. The delays indicate that the Police are still gathering evidence over many months and years. It is not easy even if radical Muslim Pakistani's are profiled using a complex subset of variable data.
The lack of victim support, for want of sufficient funding, is both deplorable and a sad reflection.
Many victims did not receive support because of the state’s reluctance to interfere in supposed cultural practices. Agencies downplayed ethnic or religiously identified dimensions of abuse. They also applied generic labels such as “Asian” to the perpetrators, which is a source of great concern to Asians who would never indulge in or condone such horrible crimes.
In the tragic cases of child sexual abuse by Roman Catholics or Anglicans, there is no inhibition about identifying these faith traditions, yet there appears to be a degree of censorship when it comes to identifying abusers who call themselves Muslim, or who use warped interpretations of Islam to justify their abhorrent acts. This kind of political correctness is a source of profound frustration.
https://hansard.parliament.uk/lords/201 ... omingGangs
The killer was first called the Whitechapel Murderer and Leather Apron.
The Ripper case was the first serial killer story in history to cause a widespread media frenzy and that was due to the proliferation of inexpensive broadsheet newspapers.
A police investigation into a series of eleven brutal killings in Whitechapel up to 1891 was unable to connect all the killings conclusively to the murders of 1888.
In the case of so-called 'grooming gangs' one profile alone does not cover a multitude of gang offences.
According to a report by 'Hansard' we know that between April 2017 and March 2018 the police recorded over 16,000 cases of rape of children under the age of 16 in England and Wales. This implies 44 child rapes per day. Ministry of Justice statistics over the same period suggest that few of these rapes resulted in a criminal conviction. In 2017, only 544 rapists were convicted. What is more, victims and their families often have to endure lengthy delays and uncertainty, both before and after court hearings. In 2017 the median time from offence to completion for cases of child rape was 2,115 days. That is close to six years. It is important to stress that these figures do not necessarily relate to grooming gang offences, but the scale of abuse and the time it takes to prosecute offenders raise serious questions about the criminal justice system’s ability to meet the needs of victims.
Additionally, whilst Child sexual exploitation occurs in many places. Some estimate that grooming gangs operate in 73 towns, from Plymouth to Liverpool, from Cambridge to Glasgow, there may be many hundreds of victims on a waiting list, with an average waiting time of seven months. Additional funding is clearly needed for children and young people’s services to meet the needs of victims.
In the first paragraph from Hansard it may reasonably be implied that the Police need to find evidence sufficient to gain a conviction in Court, suggesting that a girl's statement of abuse or the association with a man in a taxi cab is really not sufficient evidence. The delays indicate that the Police are still gathering evidence over many months and years. It is not easy even if radical Muslim Pakistani's are profiled using a complex subset of variable data.
The lack of victim support, for want of sufficient funding, is both deplorable and a sad reflection.
Many victims did not receive support because of the state’s reluctance to interfere in supposed cultural practices. Agencies downplayed ethnic or religiously identified dimensions of abuse. They also applied generic labels such as “Asian” to the perpetrators, which is a source of great concern to Asians who would never indulge in or condone such horrible crimes.
In the tragic cases of child sexual abuse by Roman Catholics or Anglicans, there is no inhibition about identifying these faith traditions, yet there appears to be a degree of censorship when it comes to identifying abusers who call themselves Muslim, or who use warped interpretations of Islam to justify their abhorrent acts. This kind of political correctness is a source of profound frustration.
https://hansard.parliament.uk/lords/201 ... omingGangs
Re: Corbyn NEVER lets you down
I agree with most of that. The one thing i would add is that in the case of rape cases go forward when it is just the word of a woman against a man. Why is this not the case when children make claims against their attackers? It is because 'the authorities' have been unwilling to act that these atrocities ( and I use the word deliberately) have carried on happening. The perpetrators and indeed the victims think know no-one is prepared to take action. Had a member of my family suffered abuse of that kind - I personally would have acted and true justice would have been served.(cue Colin to make a hand-wringing, gut-wrenching tirade about vigilantes)
Re: Corbyn NEVER lets you down
Sarah Champion, the sacked Labour MP who warned Pakistani gangs were/are raping white girls, has vowed to keep standing up for victims despite losing her job in Jeremy Corbyn's senior team.
The MP for Rotherham sparked a row after claiming there is a cultural element to sexual abuse in many cases, which resulted in her being forced to stand down by Mr Corbyn.
A number of MPs and campaigners came out to support the Labour MP following her resignation,in 2017, after Mr Corbyn said she was wrong to highlight the relevance of cultural background in child sex grooming cases.
The MP for Rotherham sparked a row after claiming there is a cultural element to sexual abuse in many cases, which resulted in her being forced to stand down by Mr Corbyn.
A number of MPs and campaigners came out to support the Labour MP following her resignation,in 2017, after Mr Corbyn said she was wrong to highlight the relevance of cultural background in child sex grooming cases.
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