Well, what does one say to adequately describe the events of yesterday?! I have been watching the videos in disbelief, not sure if maybe I had mistakenly tuned in to some futuristic action-film about breakdown of law and order in the USA. Absolutely shocking that something like that could happen - not in some banana republic or obscure Eastern European dictatorship, but in a supposedly civilised "world-leading" democracy.
If you don't win the election, you try to hold onto power by violence and mob-rule. What?! I thought many months ago that Trump was somewhat unhinged, but I still haven't fully taken in that the President himself encouraged and incited these events to ensue by his continuous tweets and public statements. Well before the election, he was giving out hints that he would be unwilling to accept the result if it went against him.
Maybe it really says something about the USA itself, how fragile their democracy is and how divided, polarised and also immature the electorate is - still ready to seize arms to get what it wants, vulnerable to phoney political persuasion, urban myths and crackpot conspiracy theories.
We are living in an increasingly dangerous world with China flexing its economic and political strength, quite apart from all the other dangers from terrorism, "rogue-states", climate etc. We really don't need the USA to be seen as weak, becoming politically unstable and a shocking example to the rest of the world.
Never thought I would see such scenes in my lifetime!
Hastings Forum
Storming of US Capitol
Re: Storming of US Capitol
If the protestors had been black there would have most likely been mass-carnage after an overwhelming use of force by the authorities.
That really says something about the USA itself.
That really says something about the USA itself.
Re: Storming of US Capitol
I rather think that there are wider issues at stake, Richard .. the disparity of treatment towards blacks/whites is concerning enough, but how could a mob rampage unimpeded through a government building in the first place and interrupt proceedings? The police themselves appear to be politicised, some even sympathetic to the rioters. Absolutely unbelievable, how low the USA has sunk.
Re: Storming of US Capitol
The charismatic ebullient Trump, who came out of the blue, and like Boris, had a messy social life, is about to be replaced by Joe Biden who is a long-term candidate, finally getting his chance.
Unfortunately he appears to be half-dead, boring and very tired.
Unfortunately he appears to be half-dead, boring and very tired.
Re: Storming of US Capitol
Joe Biden is a supporter for Globalism. Some people hold strong views on this subject.
Re: Storming of US Capitol
Hitler was charismatic too. Obviously then, it would have been better if Trump had got re-elected .. not boring but providing plenty of excitement.
I think the USA at this moment probably needs nothing less than a boring, sane, stable man at-the-top, who can lead the administration and instigate the things which need doing. He will have plenty of more energetic people around him to advise and actually tackle the USA's deep problems.
Whether one likes it or not, globalism is here to stay in a greater or lesser extent. Technology has made the world smaller. Trump was also glad enough of globalism to extend his business interests abroad and his personal wealth. More regulation, checks, balances - yes, that is a fair subject for debate.
I think the USA at this moment probably needs nothing less than a boring, sane, stable man at-the-top, who can lead the administration and instigate the things which need doing. He will have plenty of more energetic people around him to advise and actually tackle the USA's deep problems.
Whether one likes it or not, globalism is here to stay in a greater or lesser extent. Technology has made the world smaller. Trump was also glad enough of globalism to extend his business interests abroad and his personal wealth. More regulation, checks, balances - yes, that is a fair subject for debate.
Re: Storming of US Capitol
Well, okay seahermit, charisma is not always a positive attribute.
But look at politics these days, we need a more mature and consensual form of democracy, yet we have had Corbyn who made Labour a more confrontational party again.
Cameron and the Tory backbench rebels inflicted Brexit and all of its divisions upon us.
We now have 'angry politics' in the West and democracy that is in good working order – with conflict, but where people accept the existence of their adversaries – is not easy to re-establish.
As for globalism, we have had several waves, starting with the industrial revolution, surely!
But look at politics these days, we need a more mature and consensual form of democracy, yet we have had Corbyn who made Labour a more confrontational party again.
Cameron and the Tory backbench rebels inflicted Brexit and all of its divisions upon us.
We now have 'angry politics' in the West and democracy that is in good working order – with conflict, but where people accept the existence of their adversaries – is not easy to re-establish.
As for globalism, we have had several waves, starting with the industrial revolution, surely!
Re: Storming of US Capitol
Politics in the West seems to have become much more confrontational, divisive and intolerant. Numerous reasons no doubt, but one has to be the sophistication and speed of modern communications and in particular the rise of social media. It is easy and quick to spread widely all sorts of false, crackpot or malicious rumours/disinformation/plain lies to an audience which is already discontented, enduring difficult lives, gullible and eager to find scapegoats for its problems. The Nazis of course became masters at employing modern communications to manipulate an already unhappy population, the Soviets also used misinformation and propaganda to chilling effect in order to control their society.
I hope this is not the way things are going, hopefully the horrifying events in Washington will awaken authorities to the need to properly confront the dangers of manipulation posed - which until now has signally not happened, because the social media platforms and also news agencies like Fox News were making nice amounts of money out of it all.
It has been said before that civilisations/societies have often crumbled from within, more than suffered from external threats. That happened in the Roman Empire when the ideals and morality of their institutions became weakened by corruption, internal strife and decadence. The unwieldiness and sheer impracticality of surplanting sound economic common sense with political ideology certainly did for the USSR - eventually. The Mugal empire in India likewise disintegrated because of civil wars between rival members of the same families.
Sorry, long thread! But the events in the USA should not have been a surprise outcome really - nevertheless, they have raised very thought-provoking issues about the direction in which western democracy is going. We have to be able to govern ourselves effectively and also maintain some degree of unity, respect for our institutions and for authority - as opposed to an excess of individualism and selfishness. Otherwise the long-term consequences are obvious and there will be more internal strife and conflict within western societies.
I hope this is not the way things are going, hopefully the horrifying events in Washington will awaken authorities to the need to properly confront the dangers of manipulation posed - which until now has signally not happened, because the social media platforms and also news agencies like Fox News were making nice amounts of money out of it all.
It has been said before that civilisations/societies have often crumbled from within, more than suffered from external threats. That happened in the Roman Empire when the ideals and morality of their institutions became weakened by corruption, internal strife and decadence. The unwieldiness and sheer impracticality of surplanting sound economic common sense with political ideology certainly did for the USSR - eventually. The Mugal empire in India likewise disintegrated because of civil wars between rival members of the same families.
Sorry, long thread! But the events in the USA should not have been a surprise outcome really - nevertheless, they have raised very thought-provoking issues about the direction in which western democracy is going. We have to be able to govern ourselves effectively and also maintain some degree of unity, respect for our institutions and for authority - as opposed to an excess of individualism and selfishness. Otherwise the long-term consequences are obvious and there will be more internal strife and conflict within western societies.
Re: Storming of US Capitol
It is perfectly legal to debate and win people over by reasonable arguments.
Manipulation by various means, however, may or not be legal, bearing in mind the concept of freedoms of speech and the definition of manipulation.
Also, what was permitted in the past may not be allowed now.
Generally speaking, unless there is incitement to violence, healthy debate and arguments seems fair and square.
After all we are bombarded by all manner of news items and advertisements every day, which reflect the political views of the media agent involved or employ pseudo-scientific terms designed to bamboozle the unwary. There we do not even have the chance to answer back.
Manipulated elections undermine confidence in democracy.
Cambridge Analytica, was a political data firm hired by President Trump’s 2016 election campaign, which gained access to private information on more than 50 million Facebook users. The firm offered tools that could identify the personalities of American voters and influence their behavior.
This was deemed, illegal, but people can still, and always will, be influenced depending on their outlook, experience and political (even sexual) persuasion.
Manipulation by various means, however, may or not be legal, bearing in mind the concept of freedoms of speech and the definition of manipulation.
Also, what was permitted in the past may not be allowed now.
Generally speaking, unless there is incitement to violence, healthy debate and arguments seems fair and square.
After all we are bombarded by all manner of news items and advertisements every day, which reflect the political views of the media agent involved or employ pseudo-scientific terms designed to bamboozle the unwary. There we do not even have the chance to answer back.
Manipulated elections undermine confidence in democracy.
Cambridge Analytica, was a political data firm hired by President Trump’s 2016 election campaign, which gained access to private information on more than 50 million Facebook users. The firm offered tools that could identify the personalities of American voters and influence their behavior.
This was deemed, illegal, but people can still, and always will, be influenced depending on their outlook, experience and political (even sexual) persuasion.
Re: Storming of US Capitol
There has always been a tension between the right to freedom of speech and manipulation/ persuasion/attempted influence of one kind or another.
"We do not even have the chance to fight back". Yes we do and we have always done. By maintaining constant vigilance, employing our our common sense and by publicly challenging anything which is hypocritical, false, misleading. Freedom of speech thankfully gives us many opportunities to combat and "shoot down" malicious or false information. But it takes effort and determination - unfortunately many people are lazy and will believe what makes them comfortable, not necessarily what is the reality.
"We do not even have the chance to fight back". Yes we do and we have always done. By maintaining constant vigilance, employing our our common sense and by publicly challenging anything which is hypocritical, false, misleading. Freedom of speech thankfully gives us many opportunities to combat and "shoot down" malicious or false information. But it takes effort and determination - unfortunately many people are lazy and will believe what makes them comfortable, not necessarily what is the reality.
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