Hippopotus ... or "The Last Trump"?!

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seahermit
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Hippopotus ... or "The Last Trump"?!

Postby seahermit » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:07 am

We think we have our problems in little Hastings ... This reflects my view of the Special Relationship currently! Unedifying and not encouraging for our future. (Lovely cartoon from Peter Brookes of The Times)
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Derek Jempson
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Re: Hippopotus ... or "The Last Trump"?!

Postby Derek Jempson » Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:14 am

Brilliant! It's amazing what newspaper cartoonists can get away with. I suppose it rests on the principle that any complaints from the "victims" would be seen as petty and foolish.

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Richard
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Re: Hippopotus ... or "The Last Trump"?!

Postby Richard » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:25 pm

'Lampooning' a piece of writing, a drawing, etc. that criticizes a famous person or a public organization in a humorous way, allowing their or its bad qualities to be seen and making them or it seem stupid has a very long history, from the ancient Greeks to the British royalty.
This is often tolerated in much the same way that the Court Jester can poke fun in the face of the King and is now virtually taken for granted as 'freedom of the Press' or 'Freedom of Speech'.
The French 'Charlie Hebdo' magazine took it all too far and paid the consequences when they depicted the Muslim God as a terrorist in the name of 'free speech'.
12 people were killed by gunmen, including publishing director Charb and several other prominent cartoonists.

Trump is a devisive political animal and has now has clearly sided against the Muslims as potential trouble makers and favoured the Jews and Israeli's.
Trump will spell out a broader strategy for confronting Iran, including its ballistic missile program and support for terror networks in the Middle East. Previously Obama's administration arranged some sort of deal on Iran's continuing development of missiles that can deliver nuclear warheads to targets anywhere in the world.
The U.S. is de facto run by pro-Israeli Jews either directly, or indirectly through the might of their powerful lobbies in Washington.
The Jews are full partners in decision making at all levels.
Trump today recognized Jerusalem as Israel's capital, to fulfill a key campaign promise.

Perhaps the cartoon was not strong enough!

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seahermit
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Re: Hippopotus ... or "The Last Trump"?!

Postby seahermit » Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:23 am

I am gratified that my post prompted such a long and eloquent response from Richard!

Yes, satire has a long history. Your remarks brought back fond memories of studying (in the original Greek!) the comedies of Aristophanes. All the familiar architypes were in there - the hypocrites, the pompous ones, the oily politicians. The plays were very funny and astonishly "modern" in their themes.

I think it was "The Birds" in which the bird population got fed up with the Gods darting through their part of the sky en route to various dubious activities on Earth. The birds blocked all the routes and exacted a toll, causing a crisis in Olympus! The birds' section of the sky, halfway between earth and heaven, was famously translated as "Cloud-cuckoo land".

Much later, the satirical poet Juvenal tore to pieces the seedier and more disreputable aspects of life under the Roman empire. He was very crude, biting and funny, I'm not sure why he escaped being executed!

I think authority tolerates satire because it realises that it is a safety valve for people's frustrations. Better some rude jokes than having to deal with a proper insurrection. Even in communist Russia there existed a healthy strain of satirical comic drama.

Trump is different, he worries me. He is as impulsive, unpredictable, short-tempered and naive as a spolt child. He seems to have no sensitivity or understanding in his dealings with others, nor does he act with any reasoning or forethought about consequences. The Americans must have taken leave of their senses to elect him. One just hopes the Russians or Chinese (or North Koreans?) don't at some point perceive a weak administration and chance their luck .. it's a conceivable scenario.

cbe
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Re: Hippopotus ... or "The Last Trump"?!

Postby cbe » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:37 am

My post here is not about lampoons but about the comments made by one of the posters regarding President Trump's decision to move the US embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.
I suppose everyone knows that in 1995 the Senate passed a vote to do that very thing. It passed by 93 votes to 5. Later the House of Representatives agreed to that vote by 374 to 37.
In the 22 years since those votes, determining the US policy on the matter, not one President has enacted it. Every President, until now, has postponed the matter at 6 monthly intervals.
Bravo I think I can hear one poster say - wise men, though here we are talking of William Jefferson Clinton, George Dubya (to distinguish him from his father)Bush and Barack Hussein Obama ! Before arguing about their great wisdom in ignoring (actually postponing) the decision we should remember that in his 1992 campaign Clinton castigated the President (Bush sr) for repeatedly challenging Israel's sovereignty over a united Jerusalem He vowed to move the US embassy during HIS administration. Thereafter the votes referred to above were passed. He postponed the matter every 6 months. Then George Dubya in his 2000 campaign castigated President Clinton for not carrying out his campaign promise and he promised that HE would do so within his first few months in office. When he became President he postponed the matter every 6 months. In 2008 President Obama called Jerusalem 'the capital of Israel' but yes he too postponed the matter every 6 months.
So we now have a man, who is not a career politician, carrying out US policy as determined by Congress. A policy which had never been cancelled by previous Presidents but merely kicked into the long grass. So any vitriol should be for the American law-makers or previous Presidents who could each have made it their business to strike down this act but chose not to.
But it seems to be de rigueur to criticise the President for anything he says and does. I do hope that the fake news disease has not reached this forum.
In closing - I am not Jewish, have no Jewish friends or relatives, and am I not greatly interested in Israel. I do tire of lazy caricatures, unless done by cartoonists.

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seahermit
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Re: Hippopotus ... or "The Last Trump"?!

Postby seahermit » Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:35 pm

This is interesting. I am not in a position to judge on the accuracy of the statements made about the Congress votes, have to for now take your word for it. But I accept that US politics is probably more complicated even than the outside world perceives!

If indeed a decision was made (not so far enacted) to move the US embassy to Jerusalem, at first sight it appears that, when previous presidents took office, they probably came up against the realities of the situation in the Middle East as opposed to the simplistic view painted in their campaign speeches. It would have been extremely divisive and damaging to unilaterally recognise Jerusalem as the capital without some degree of consultation and consensus amongst all parties. That remains the case and Trump's thoughtless declaration is likely to do untold harm.

There seems little point in the USA condemning the incursions of Russia into the Crimea, Georgia etc. if Trump then effectively endorses Israel's takeover of East Jerusalem. I have no special sympathies with either side in the tragic Palestinian dispute but it seems obvious that any lasting settlement must come from mutual agreement. Israel's singlehanded attempts to permanently hold on to territory conquered in the 1967 war are merely ensuring further conflict for the next generation and beyond.

cbe
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Re: Hippopotus ... or "The Last Trump"?!

Postby cbe » Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:31 pm

That is a charitable view on potential Presidents lying in their campaign speeches - witness
Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn with student debt at the last general election...it is what professional politicians seem to do.

As regards Russia/Ukraine - strange comparison - you will know that Jerusalem is already IN Israel and merely naming the place as the new capital involves no 'incursion'. I have been trying to find any country in the world (ever) who have named a new capital which hasn't been recognised by the rest of the world. I may have overlooked somewhere but I couldn't find one.

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Richard
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Re: Hippopotus ... or "The Last Trump"?!

Postby Richard » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:58 pm

I was under the impression that Jews, fleeing persecution in Europe, wanted to establish a national homeland in what was then (and historically) an Arab and Muslim-majority territory of Palestine, an Ottoman region with a minority Jewish population, ruled by the Ottoman and later British Empires.
Zionism as a movement originally sought to encourage Jewish migration to Ottoman Palestine. Zionists also recruited European Jews to immigrate there, especially Jews who lived in areas of the Russian Empire where anti-semitism was raging.
So, the Zionist idea was for Israel to be seen as a safe haven, rolled up into the biblically 'promised land' in order for Jewish minorities to escape persecution.
This did not sit well with the Arabs and clearly they have and will always resent an enclave of Jews claiming Israel as a piece of territory over which the latter could rule.

Arabs also brought their own immigrants, from Syria and beyond, to settle in Israel, a bit like an arms race.
The Balfour Declaration was a public statement issued by the British government during World War I, announcing support for the establishment of a "national home for the Jewish people" in Israel, set aside as distinct from adjacent Palestinian territories.

Two groups of people who just cannot ever live together is a very sad story and yet I have some sympathy for both sides.

cbe
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Re: Hippopotus ... or "The Last Trump"?!

Postby cbe » Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:45 pm

Me too - in this connection at least.

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seahermit
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Re: Hippopotus ... or "The Last Trump"?!

Postby seahermit » Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:16 am

As I understand it, the boundary between West and East Jerusalem (roughly drawn on the map and agreed on by the Israeli and Jordanian military forces facing each other) was intended to be a temporary dividing line at the time of their ceasefire after the 1948 war. It was never intended to be a permanent frontier but a few months later during the armistice talks it emerged as the only border line on which both parties could agree and it thus became an international border.

As far as I know, from the beginning the whole area of Jerusalem was never regarded as being within the territory of Israel. Thus during the 1967 war (and especially since the "City Line" as it was called had been recognised internationally since 1948 as the official border dividing Jerusalem), the over-running of East Jerusalem by Israeli troops was very much an incursion (leaving aside all the rights and wrongs of the matter). That is the reason I compared it to the Russian incursions - not a good example I admit, but the point is that it was likewise a military incursion into sovereign Jordanian territory.

A lot of the problems in Palestine derive from political confusions before and after the Balfour Declaration - I mean irreconcilable promises made to different parties by the British government, the great moral obligation felt towards Jewish people after the holocaust, in contrast the fierce resentment of the Arabs at the political settlements being made over their heads, the desire of the British to relinquish their administration of a very troublesome and unrewarding territory, a disregard for the fact that in 1948 the Arab population already occupying Palestine greatly outnumbered the Jewish and Jewish-settler population.

It was all very rushed, ill-thought out and lacking in attention to details. Not our finest hour, I am afraid.


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