Vikings

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Richard
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Vikings

Postby Richard » Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:54 pm

Leaving Scotland and the early Scandinavian Viking incursions there aside for the moment, I am still really not clear on all this history.
Scandinavian Vikings made many raids upon our country and eventually settled in York and were perfectly willing to integrate with the local Anglo-Saxon population, who were in-turn, subject to the enormous religious power-base of the Church, whose Christianity traditionally emanated from Rome.
The French Vikings (Normans) came over in 1066, into Hastings, and shortly afterwards the Scandinavian Vikings, who had then been in York for around 100 years, succumbed to them and soon just disappeared, or were driven out, or gave it all up as a bad job.
We no longer had to pay (Dane-geld) money to the Scandinavian Vikings as the French (Norman) Vikings took over the country completely.
The same overpowering religion prevailed and enormous Cathedrals were built, on the French model, but somewhere along the line we felt ourselves to be wholly English and not of either Norman or Scandinavian-Viking origin.
Many 'English' Kings and Queens married into French Royal families (and vice-versa) and held lands on both sides of the Channel.
The French sent raids over to Hastings ever since and burned ships and houses and the Spanish eventually sent an 'Armada' over to uphold the Catholic religion as we were seen to be heretics, under Queen Elizabeth 1'st, challenging the might of Rome's Catholic power-base, following on from the split with the Church, instigated by Henry V111 following the Lutheran (German) model, when Henry was denied the right to divorce.
Elizabeth maintained the need for an independent Church of England and this was seen as heresy by the fanatical Spaniards.
Now we are trying to split away from the EU and are threatened with all manner of die consequences.
My summary views may be well well short of the truth but who can say that history isn't interesting?

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seahermit
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Re: Vikings

Postby seahermit » Sun Apr 15, 2018 2:49 pm

This has to be "1066 and All That, Part Two". Although not a fair criticism - the original book had far fewer errors and gross simplifications.

Anyway, what on earth does it have to do with present-day Hastings?

cbe
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Re: Vikings

Postby cbe » Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:41 pm

Interesting Richard that you say we are 'trying' to split away from the EU. I understood that the decision to leave was taken in a democrat referendum and that the Prime Minister of the day made it clear that 'the British government will act on your decision'.

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Richard
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Re: Vikings

Postby Richard » Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:51 pm

RE- the 'splitting away' by any other name, it is indeed quite clear that a vote was taken democratically, after concerns about 'foreign invasion' by virtually unlimited immigrants from, or entering the EU via other outside countries, were strongly promoted by Nigel Farage, playing on UK citizens' fears of job-losses and consequent pressures on housing and the NHS.
It strikes me that an additional problem highlighted with the EU is (was) its inability to let member countries govern themselves and that it over-interfered with matters best left to local decision-making. VAT, LAW and many other means of manufacture and import/export, labour relations, and so on, were/are largely determined by Brussels.
Historically our royalty and its powers were diluted by parliament, after a wresting of power signed up to by 'Magna Carta' and this process continued for quite some time.
The EU effectively took yet more powers away and that is why some may wish to reclaim our sovereign powers, (as diluted by parliament), and not wish for yet more dilution from a third party.
Personally I think integration with Europe is a good thing but why can't they let us run our own country? That is just as worrying as being overrun by EU immigrants and the many refugees whom the French conveniently allowed to settle in Calais.
Perhaps leave the money we pay to the EU aside as it was another 'political football'.
The EU was an over-ambitious project which we now wish to leave and we believe it was an impediment to doing global business on a huge scale.

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seahermit
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Re: Vikings

Postby seahermit » Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:49 pm

All this stuff has been gone over and argued about for the last two years. I can't see what point you are trying to make ..Is there a point?!

In any case, what has it got to do with the poor old Vikings? Or potty little Hastings?

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Richard
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Re: Vikings

Postby Richard » Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:07 am

My seahermit you are becoming a weary cynical old soul!
I was just recapping - thinking aloud - to wonder how we still manage to assimilate or retain an aversion to immigration and all that, after our long history of same.
Being molded by foreign peoples and ruled by a wealth of royal families we still retain an identity of being 'English' and no doubt W. Churchill had something to say about that too.
Hastings has been much affected and still is, at least in its fishing rights, for now at least!

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seahermit
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Re: Vikings

Postby seahermit » Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:58 am

I certainly am cynical .. of politicians and and of bullshit mainly!

"We still manage to assimilate or retain an aversion to immigration". These are two opposites .. which one are you saying that we manage to do?

It is not true that we are "molded by foreign peoples". The last major invasion took place a thousand years ago and, although many other immigrants have since been absorbed into the main ethnic body (French, Irish, Hugenots, Dutch, Jews, Asians etc. etc.), the effect has been marginal. Recent DNA studies have found that the predominant ethnic traces are still Anglo-Saxon. The English language still has a predominance towards AS words.

"Hastings has been much affected". By what exactly?

I appreciate that there are issues which you think are worthy of debate, but it is of no help if you don't think out clearly what you are trying to say and your facts are all garbled.

cbe
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Re: Vikings

Postby cbe » Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:18 pm

I wonder Richard whether this 'aversion' to immigration is in fact more of an understandable objection to yet more pressures being added to housing/jobs/hospital places/policing for no
discernible benefit. Whilst on I will just touch on one of your earlier comments regarding the referendum - I don't think immigration was the main reason for the Leave verdict, that was just one visible reminder of how we are unable to determine so many things in this country for ourselves but must follow the diktat of an unelected EU commission. Control was the reason for the Leave decision.

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Richard
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Re: Vikings

Postby Richard » Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:02 pm

There is still a strong aversion to immigration despite the fact that we have traditionally assimilated huge numbers through history, that seems quite clear.
This may seem a paradox to some but I think it was the more recent and relatively huge numbers entering the country by EU decree that caused great concern.
There was already an influx of commonwealth citizens from African and Caribbean countries, which occurred in the post-war years to fill the labour shortage, this stirred resentment by prominent politicians, for example Enoch Powell and his diatribes in 1968 re- the dire consequences. These included the pressures on housing and the NHS and remarks that soon 'Blacks' would hold the whip hand.
More recently we have had resentment over the numbers of Muslim immigrants and the belief that they too will rule this country before long, additionally their higher birth-rate and religion was seen at odds with our own cherished values.
Immigration raises its ugly head time and again but I agree that it is perhaps the control from the EU that seeks to force through any number of rules and regulations across a broad spectrum of legal matters, wages, labour conditions, agriculture and aspects of everyday life, that is possibly resented even more.
Finally, I could argue that the referendum was flawed as it allowed only two choices, remain or stay, this is not representative democracy — Parliament — since there is no allowance made about the complex choices really involved:
In the case of Brexit, the hidden complexity concerned:
— Leave, and adopt an EFTA or WTO framework?
— Leave, while the UK remains intact or while it splits up?
— Remain, in what manner?
The referendum allowed only a binary choice — Remain or Leave the EU, whereas the true situation was much more complex, perhaps too complex for anyone to understand fully.
We don’t know how people would have voted if they had been offered the true options as
these now unfold before our eyes.

cbe
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Re: Vikings

Postby cbe » Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:31 pm

One hesitates to use the expression that you are either pregnant or not BUT you are either a member of the eu or you are not. THAT is blindingly obvious and all the obfuscation by those who wish to ignore a democratic decision cannot change that. All the invented prefixes 'hard' or 'soft' Brexit are put there by those who wish to change or at least water down the referendum result.

Is this a democracy? At my age I have experienced losing out in votes many times . No problem, whether or not you are happy with the result you accept the decision, anything else will result in anarchy. The Remainers (I hate these words but they will do as shorthand) in the MSM and the
majority in the Houses of Parliament are playing with fire.


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