Vikings

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Richard
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Re: Vikings

Postby Richard » Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:53 pm

I believe the issue now is whether we will get the straightforward 'Brexit' we thought we voted for or whether the democratic process will have to accept what parliament and the House of Lords can negotiate with the EU and there may have to be some further compromise.
Brexit is happening but it looks like we shall have a lengthy transition period and some issues are not so simple to resolve, i.e. the Irish border and customs controls, future relations on things like trade, travel and security and the rights of UK and EU citizens. The 'divorce' bill seems to have been largely settled.
I still think that immigration (cheap labour) had a lot to do with it as business was mainly in favour of remaining and retaining cheap and / or skilled foreign labour and we were also told that the NHS relied upon nurses and doctors from EU countries.
Also the free movement of people was always a major bone of contention and lastly the referendum was a political decision brought about by Cameron using it as a means to get into power.

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seahermit
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Re: Vikings

Postby seahermit » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:00 am

There were numerous issues, not just immigration, which formed the Leave campaign's case for exiting the EU - but the whole thing largely boiled down to the UK's decreasing ability to guide its own destiny and make its own laws.

But so what? It is now past history. As Cbe succinctly said, a democratic decision was made by the electorate and that should be respected. The long rearguard action being waged by the disgruntled Remain lobby is dishonourable and a time-wasting distraction. Mrs May is no saint but she does come over as quite calm and level-headed in her determination to see the Brexit process through. Good. Sooner the better.

cbe
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Re: Vikings

Postby cbe » Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:40 am

I agreed with Seahermit until the last sentence. Theresa May was a Remainer who was annointed by the powers that be to ensure that the Brexit delivered would be watered down as much as possible. She has done little but shilly-shally giving these 'disgruntled' and 'dishonourable' Remainers more and more time to try to muddy the waters in what was a very simple and clear question - do you want to remain or leave.

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Richard
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Re: Vikings

Postby Richard » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:59 pm

The EU was lauded by Tony Blair who wanted closer integration, Norman Lamont then railed against this after he was displaced as Chancellor.
At Maastricht, 1992, John Major, Douglas Hurd and Lamont faced demands from our European partners for a common foreign policy, a common immigration policy and a single currency.
We seemed to have joined a club very different from that which we we had in mind in the early Seventies.
Eurosceptics in the Tory Party made life very difficult for John Major, and eventually broke it, paving the way for Tony Blair who arrived as Labour leader in 1994, promising to lead a British government committed to the EU.
Cameron next promised a referendum in order to gain power, after first having his proposals to make the EU more palatable to the UK rebuffed, in short order, by Brussels and the other member state members.
This anti-EU stance was, therefore, originally reinforced because various treaties increased or altered the EU powers and made membership less attractive to the UK and it was non-negotiable on many important (to the UK) matters.
It has all been along time coming and then Farage used the immigration card as a much more recent ploy.
Attempts to create a federal state that supersedes sovereign nations are dangerous and doomed to failure, despite EU advocates from both major parties, a vote was taken and we now have to get on with it, or rather T. May has to negotiate on our behalf, despite being a 'remainer' originally. Her weakened majority makes her vulnerable.
The House of Lords will throw further spanner in the works and we won't get out fully until 2022 at this rate. Extricating ourselves has proved to be a messy process and still ongoing, such that we still do not know what sort of future relationship we will have with the EU.

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seahermit
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Re: Vikings

Postby seahermit » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:56 pm

I know that some remember Theresa May as a former Remainer and therefore see her as a rather dubious evangelist for exiting the EU. In the complexity of changing allegiances and motives which politicians indulge in, it is indeed difficult to see the thread of what is really happening and what politicians' true intentions are!

But I am not sure that tbere was a deliberate consensus to push May forward, knowing that she would be less than rigid about achieving a hard and clear-cut break from the EU. I think she was the best of a bad bunch, David Cameron having made a fool of himself over his misjudgement with the Referendum campaign.

In any case, giving politicians a little rope, the whole Brexit is complex and a negotiator's nightmare. It is almost impossible to forge a strong, decisive exit path without upsetting some factions or other, here or abroad. And of course May has put herself in a weak position by her miscalculation over the last election.

In my doubtless naivety, I think that the Government will muddle through to the inevitable exit, with fudging and compromises of course, because to not bring about Brexit would be political suicide for the Tories and divide the country even further.

cbe
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Re: Vikings

Postby cbe » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:39 pm

The problem has been that it was always the founding fathers' intention to create a single country out of the countries who were in the EU. Remember that this started as an agreement between 5 or 6 West European countries regarding iron and steel. This eventually 'morphed into the EEC - we, the cannon fodder, were told that all this was just a common market and would benefit us all. It is now the European Union and exerts control over many aspects of our life. You will probably remember the sainted Nick Clegg talking of the 'ridiculous suggestion of there being an EU army' this was just months before the powers that be in Brussels started to openly voice such a thing. This One Country of Europe has been the dream since the Richard Coudenhave-Calergi plan back in the day.
The problem we have in leaving is that there are so many vested interests kicking and screaming at the thought of them losing monies from the EU (OUR monies by the way) whose palms, both personal and institutional, have been greased constantly by Brussels.

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seahermit
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Re: Vikings

Postby seahermit » Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:42 am

I agree with all of that, you have summarised it very precisely and, as far as I know, accurately!

It started out as a trading community, nothing wrong with that and many people in the UK supported the common sense of it.

It morphed (or was the intention always there maybe?) into a political entity which subordinated and minimalised national identities, separate cultures and cherished traditions - and in an increasingly bureaucratic, even authoritarian way.

Not what we fought a couple of world wars for.

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Richard
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Re: Vikings

Postby Richard » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:14 am

The only coherent story Europe has is more globalism and more market, and that is what the populations are rejecting, the admission of many really poor countries naturally encouraged mass-immigration to wealthier countries and caused an imbalance in the services needed already by a local population.
Greece was broken by the EU and now China and Russia are making overtures there, in fact China is buying the whole container port of Piraeus and signing billions of euros worth of investment deals with Greece.
Polish and Hungarian governments rejected immigration quotas and formed an alliance to thwart the European commission over judicial and fiscal reforms.
Italy is known for corruption and the French president Emmanuel Macron’s proposal for accelerating Europe’s economic integration, is something Germany wants to reject, they have already had enough of the million refugees accepted by Angela Merkel.
EU accounts are unaudited and bureaucrats grow fat on the gravy-train.
In summary:
Too many countries were admitted and the EU became too ambitious and overbearing in legal, fiscal, political and security matters.
Now we have Russia to cope with, spreading cyber-attacks, Fake News and trying to influence elections, stirring revolt in Spain (Catalonia) and poisoning people around the globe with near-impunity.
Happy Days!

cbe
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Re: Vikings

Postby cbe » Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:06 am

More or less agree with you Richard apart from the fact that you suggest that the fake news comes from Putin. Perhaps some does, but far more of it comes from our own MSM. We have regular doses where we are given false accounts either by omission or commission. Read a wide enough spread of sources and you have a small chance of getting an accurate portrayal. Our MSM now seem to give THEIR opinions on matters rather than factual reports.

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Richard
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Re: Vikings

Postby Richard » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:44 pm

Certainly false news, by any other name, is as old as the hills, just that now it can be spread by different means and reach a much wider (younger, more gullible) audience.
What to believe when political bias gets in the way too? Especially when the Press don't care too much about the truth.
Example, is Corbyn really anti-Semitic or is he just being trashed by the Press and Zionists in this country who wish to damage him?
I don't particularly like the man but is he being treated fairly for highlighting human rights of Palestinians and, like many on the socialist left, is staunchly pro-Palestinian?
Why is he even getting involved in such matters when we have more pressing issues, right here on our doorstep?
I suspect Corbyn likes to support the underdog and plays devil's advocate on many issues, just to keep in the headlines, come what may.


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