I agree figures are not reliable and often misleading.
However I disagree that it is the immigrants that are over-burdening the NHS.
Take a look at the locals here alone, there are many who are grossly obese and oblivious of the strain their condition puts on the NHS, on many levels, now or in the future.
Doctors were awarded higher pay rates by the Blair govt. and stopped working at weekends, many of the doctors could then also afford to work part-time (especially female doctors) and / or retire early. Large sums of money spent by the Blair government on those pay-scales in the NHS resulted in only a tiny percentage increase in productivity but no doubt pleased the public-sector consultants and GP's who could also perform lucrative private treatments additionally.
The sickness rate among NHS staff is far higher than the average for industry and when you consider GP's are paid £75 per hour and consultants £150 you will see greater costs are incurred on that issue alone.
An ageing population and new treatments and over-prescribing of costly drugs are another element. I am not much concerned about immigrant strains put onto the NHS but clearly it is not to be welcomed. I do hear that many tourists come here and use the NHS for expensive treatments and then go back home with little chance of payment being taken.
Many people who should be working seem to be able to go onto 'disability' payments and even the genuine elderly with medical needs can claim generous allowances, example 'disability living allowance' even if they are quite wealthy and do not need them, in fact they are encouraged to claim by social services.
Returning to the fewer hours worked by doctors and never at weekends, that is a major factor behind the figures for overcrowding and long waiting times at the accident and emergency rooms in hospitals, people go to the hospital because there is no weekend working at the surgery.
Also doctors now commonly encourage patients to go to hospitals if they have a problem with a medical issue which they feel is more urgent, passing the buck perhaps and adding to the strains.
Housing pressures are another matter but I doubt that the immigrants are particularly responsible for the costs of property and it doesn't seem to deter them at all.
A solution to that would be to encourage immigrants to go to Scotland where there is much less hostility, more land and cheaper housing but perhaps less employment and it would not be their first choice.
Hastings Forum
Vikings
Re: Vikings
Oh dear... I agree completely about the craziness of pay awards and hours worked in the NHS, it has long been a bugbear of mine that the NHS is OVERFUNDED, not short of money. Far too many chiefs and non-jobs AND all the things you mention. I agree also about self-inflicted health problems BUT to even hint that these hundreds of thousands of immigrants, half of whom come from countries with little or no health infrastructure, are not a tremendous burden is, at best naive. The suggestion we should 'encourage' them to go to Scotland is so simplistic I wondered whether you were serious. No matter where these immigrants are sent to they are not in a prison and so they will continue to gravitate towards the South East - that will not change.
You say that you do not think that immigrants are 'particularly responsible for the costs of property' and that 'it doesn't seem to deter them at all' !!!!!!! So massive oversupply of tenants does not have an effect on rents? The fact that most of them have their rents paid by the Government (i.e. me and thee) is perhaps why the costs 'don't deter them'. You are John McDonnell and I claim my £5-00
You say that you do not think that immigrants are 'particularly responsible for the costs of property' and that 'it doesn't seem to deter them at all' !!!!!!! So massive oversupply of tenants does not have an effect on rents? The fact that most of them have their rents paid by the Government (i.e. me and thee) is perhaps why the costs 'don't deter them'. You are John McDonnell and I claim my £5-00
Re: Vikings
Yes! the Scotland option was tongue-in-cheek.
Re- the alleged abuse of the benefits system, this is being overhauled slowly, it seems, despite being introduced many years ago in 2013 as 'Universal Credit', an online interactive-claims system dreamt up by Iain Duncan Smith, former work and pensions secretary, hailed as the Cameron government's flagship welfare overhaul of general benefits, this Universal Credit umbrella system is still being gradually rolled out and operates currently in Hastings.
Universal Credit, which encompasses all six major working-age benefits – including job seeker’s allowance, tax credit and housing benefit – into one monthly payment, has been beset with problems, the computer systems have cost umpteen millions, it is years behind schedule and there have been four different secretaries of state since Duncan Smith resigned in 2016.
Claimants have to provide extensive proof of identity and, in the case of Job Seeker's Allowance, evidence of daily job-searches and willingness to undergo courses to help claimants back into work, i.e. CV writing and careers advice sessions, as well as help with any noted language and numeracy issues.
Payment is made monthly by arrears, as in a real job salary payment, and in the case of rent this is no longer paid directly to landlords but to the claimant's own bank account.
Failure to follow instructions to the letter can result in sanctions which are increasingly severe and can last for a number of years.
This alone will deter any bogus claims and require proof of action taken to look for work, additionally, once claimants are in work they will not need help with paying rent.
If EU or other immigrants of eligibility status want to claim any of these benefits they would have to comply and good luck to them, it will not be an easy task.
Re- the very high price of property and likewise rental properties and the assumption that claimants, including immigrants, get this paid for regardless, consequently at great cost to taxpayers, this is certainly not always the case as many landlords refuse to accept tenants who are on benefits, especially not now under Universal Credit as the rent is paid in arrears and also because it goes into the claimant's bank account rather than directly to the landlord as it did before, if tenants are struggling on other fronts and spend the money elsewhere, landlords do not like the unreliability thus engendered.
I would point out, in general agreement, that this country pays people an allowance to have children (child-allowance) and possibly child-care and nursery assistance, and possibly free school meals etcetera, to the needy. Plus 'free' education.
Medical care is 'free' and all this may attract immigrants from countries where they get little help or nothing and the UK must seem like the 'land of milk and honey.'
They possibly send earnings home rather than spend them here and work the 'black-markets' paying little or no tax, but that is another matter...
Re- the alleged abuse of the benefits system, this is being overhauled slowly, it seems, despite being introduced many years ago in 2013 as 'Universal Credit', an online interactive-claims system dreamt up by Iain Duncan Smith, former work and pensions secretary, hailed as the Cameron government's flagship welfare overhaul of general benefits, this Universal Credit umbrella system is still being gradually rolled out and operates currently in Hastings.
Universal Credit, which encompasses all six major working-age benefits – including job seeker’s allowance, tax credit and housing benefit – into one monthly payment, has been beset with problems, the computer systems have cost umpteen millions, it is years behind schedule and there have been four different secretaries of state since Duncan Smith resigned in 2016.
Claimants have to provide extensive proof of identity and, in the case of Job Seeker's Allowance, evidence of daily job-searches and willingness to undergo courses to help claimants back into work, i.e. CV writing and careers advice sessions, as well as help with any noted language and numeracy issues.
Payment is made monthly by arrears, as in a real job salary payment, and in the case of rent this is no longer paid directly to landlords but to the claimant's own bank account.
Failure to follow instructions to the letter can result in sanctions which are increasingly severe and can last for a number of years.
This alone will deter any bogus claims and require proof of action taken to look for work, additionally, once claimants are in work they will not need help with paying rent.
If EU or other immigrants of eligibility status want to claim any of these benefits they would have to comply and good luck to them, it will not be an easy task.
Re- the very high price of property and likewise rental properties and the assumption that claimants, including immigrants, get this paid for regardless, consequently at great cost to taxpayers, this is certainly not always the case as many landlords refuse to accept tenants who are on benefits, especially not now under Universal Credit as the rent is paid in arrears and also because it goes into the claimant's bank account rather than directly to the landlord as it did before, if tenants are struggling on other fronts and spend the money elsewhere, landlords do not like the unreliability thus engendered.
I would point out, in general agreement, that this country pays people an allowance to have children (child-allowance) and possibly child-care and nursery assistance, and possibly free school meals etcetera, to the needy. Plus 'free' education.
Medical care is 'free' and all this may attract immigrants from countries where they get little help or nothing and the UK must seem like the 'land of milk and honey.'
They possibly send earnings home rather than spend them here and work the 'black-markets' paying little or no tax, but that is another matter...
Re: Vikings
I have decided Richard that it would be best if I retired from this particular thread.
Re: Vikings
cbe, I really do respect your views on immigration concerns.
But one final thought:
We cannot even deport more than a handful of the estimate one million illegal immigrants reckoned to be resident upon these shores and being employed as the equivalent of 'slaves'.
Detention-Centres are potentially an abuse of human rights in their harsh dealing of clear-cut cases of suspects who have arrived without proven status rights, via legally valid documentation.
In our attempts to clamp down on illegal immigrants already known to be here and hidden in the jobs market, we have additionally tried to target and effectively abuse and condemn many genuine immigrants from the 'Windrush' generation, at least those who have no relevant identity documents, some of them never saw the need to have identity papers or passports, certainly not many of those whose records were destroyed by previous governments.
How would you feel if government officials came knocking at your door and on what basis should they feel free to label you as illegal if you had no passport? This surely sounds like a witch-hunt based on ethnicity or some other form of racist discrimination.
Also, in the case of benefits claimants, if they are shown to be lacking in the means to defend themselves by coping with the strict measures now in place, they will equally slip through the net and be vulnerable.
Often the measures implemented against fraud in the benefits and immigration systems seem to result in the wrong sort of people being targeted, i.e. the most vulnerable.
Putting all that to one side, we are currently entirely unable to resist perfectly legal immigration from the vast hordes gaining entry via the EU member countries, in our attempts to escape via Brexit, right now, we are also at an impasse whereby we cannot yet easily leave the EU without an agreement on a customs-union arrangement which regulations demand free passage of goods and labour.
It seems we are caught between a rock and and place and only have ourselves to blame.
But one final thought:
We cannot even deport more than a handful of the estimate one million illegal immigrants reckoned to be resident upon these shores and being employed as the equivalent of 'slaves'.
Detention-Centres are potentially an abuse of human rights in their harsh dealing of clear-cut cases of suspects who have arrived without proven status rights, via legally valid documentation.
In our attempts to clamp down on illegal immigrants already known to be here and hidden in the jobs market, we have additionally tried to target and effectively abuse and condemn many genuine immigrants from the 'Windrush' generation, at least those who have no relevant identity documents, some of them never saw the need to have identity papers or passports, certainly not many of those whose records were destroyed by previous governments.
How would you feel if government officials came knocking at your door and on what basis should they feel free to label you as illegal if you had no passport? This surely sounds like a witch-hunt based on ethnicity or some other form of racist discrimination.
Also, in the case of benefits claimants, if they are shown to be lacking in the means to defend themselves by coping with the strict measures now in place, they will equally slip through the net and be vulnerable.
Often the measures implemented against fraud in the benefits and immigration systems seem to result in the wrong sort of people being targeted, i.e. the most vulnerable.
Putting all that to one side, we are currently entirely unable to resist perfectly legal immigration from the vast hordes gaining entry via the EU member countries, in our attempts to escape via Brexit, right now, we are also at an impasse whereby we cannot yet easily leave the EU without an agreement on a customs-union arrangement which regulations demand free passage of goods and labour.
It seems we are caught between a rock and and place and only have ourselves to blame.
Re: Vikings
We do not want to be in a customs union. We will trade without tariffs with any country that wants it or on WTO terms i.e.10%.. You will know that many countries in the world trade with the Eu now on WTO terms. The EU dread this happening with us because of the massive problems it will cause their businesses - you will know of the massive imbalance in trade between us and the other members. The only reason this is an issue is because we have a very, very poor Prime Minister who is incapable of making any correct decision on any topic. I will not answer all the points you make on immigration as (and I have no wish to be offensive) I think your views over all these posts have been all over the place and I would not know where to start.
Re: Vikings
Yes, I am afraid I have to agree with that: certain of the views previously expressed are "all over the place" and, amidst all the long-winded waffle, it is hard to discern any serious point which is being made and which is worthy of response.
I would prefer a more serious debate with someone who knows what he is talking about.
I would prefer a more serious debate with someone who knows what he is talking about.
Re: Vikings
Hi cbe,
There is only one country in the world that trades only under WTO rules - Mauritania.
Plus countries which trade with the EU on WTO terms alone are small-fry like Cuba and Venezuela.
If after no deal Britain and the EU wanted bilateral trade to stay tariff-free, both sides would have to offer the same privileges to all WTO members.
As with Brexit, immigration issues are both very complex and often highly controversial, commonly invoking emotion and misunderstanding.
In the case of illegal immigration the policies to tackle this are also beset with difficulties, often seen to be racially motivated and damaging to the UK's reputation.
Attitudes can easily change when the means to deal with it are shown to be largely inhumane.
EU immigration is seen to a more recent phenomenon than either genuine non-EU or illegal immigration, the numbers of EU migrants involved being so large that natural increase, babies being born, is no longer the primary driver for the UK's population increase.
For all three types, as the economy improves the argument is more about the social and environmental impact, instead of ‘they’re taking our jobs, it’s about congestion and overcrowding, infrastructure and housing prices.
We clearly need hard-working committed immigrants to provide the dearth of people in the UK either willing or skilled enough to perform a huge variety and number of jobs in both the public and private sectors, yet some of us are unable to accept the consequences i.e of immigration needed to fill the shortfall.
Additionally many non-EU students come to this country from overseas, pay for a degree or other relevant qualifications themselves and then go on to work here, but they are not permitted to enter full-time employment until they have gained British citizenship via a curious process of swearing allegiance to Her Majesty, and proving their credentials.
Business thrives on immigration, the NHS relies on large numbers of immigrants and yet Brexit will make life more difficult for both and lead to poorer services and less competitive business, thus harming the economy.
Booming economies always attract a large influx of immigrants and there is more benefit than detriment in this, despite knee-jerk emotional responses from some members of the public.
Some waffle no doubt, as long as you understand the positive side of immigration outweighs the perceived negative one and with a 'hard' Brexit we may be just shooting ourselves in the foot.
In seahermit's case that wouldn't make much difference.
There is only one country in the world that trades only under WTO rules - Mauritania.
Plus countries which trade with the EU on WTO terms alone are small-fry like Cuba and Venezuela.
If after no deal Britain and the EU wanted bilateral trade to stay tariff-free, both sides would have to offer the same privileges to all WTO members.
As with Brexit, immigration issues are both very complex and often highly controversial, commonly invoking emotion and misunderstanding.
In the case of illegal immigration the policies to tackle this are also beset with difficulties, often seen to be racially motivated and damaging to the UK's reputation.
Attitudes can easily change when the means to deal with it are shown to be largely inhumane.
EU immigration is seen to a more recent phenomenon than either genuine non-EU or illegal immigration, the numbers of EU migrants involved being so large that natural increase, babies being born, is no longer the primary driver for the UK's population increase.
For all three types, as the economy improves the argument is more about the social and environmental impact, instead of ‘they’re taking our jobs, it’s about congestion and overcrowding, infrastructure and housing prices.
We clearly need hard-working committed immigrants to provide the dearth of people in the UK either willing or skilled enough to perform a huge variety and number of jobs in both the public and private sectors, yet some of us are unable to accept the consequences i.e of immigration needed to fill the shortfall.
Additionally many non-EU students come to this country from overseas, pay for a degree or other relevant qualifications themselves and then go on to work here, but they are not permitted to enter full-time employment until they have gained British citizenship via a curious process of swearing allegiance to Her Majesty, and proving their credentials.
Business thrives on immigration, the NHS relies on large numbers of immigrants and yet Brexit will make life more difficult for both and lead to poorer services and less competitive business, thus harming the economy.
Booming economies always attract a large influx of immigrants and there is more benefit than detriment in this, despite knee-jerk emotional responses from some members of the public.
Some waffle no doubt, as long as you understand the positive side of immigration outweighs the perceived negative one and with a 'hard' Brexit we may be just shooting ourselves in the foot.
In seahermit's case that wouldn't make much difference.
Re: Vikings
Many countries trade with the EU on WTO terms. Most are trying to agree better terms for imports and exports to/from the EU and it is not a one-way wish - the EU want to export tariff free too, but without causing themselves internal problems, they have enough of those already.
All EU members are also members of the WTO, ergo they have offered each other betters terms than WTO and yet have not had to offer the same deal to all other WTO members.
The government figures (haha) at Feb 2018 say that 5.6% of (OUR) NHS staff are Eu nationals and a further 6.9% say they are not British. I have not seen any suggestions that NHS workers will be sent home (and neither have you) after we leave the EU. You may say 'but what about going forward' ? Good point - a competent government would already (from June 2016) have increased medical training places so that we can become more self-sufficient in that area. Unfortunately it has been a long time since we could claim that we had a competent government.
Again, I will not pick up any of your general points on immigration for the reasons given earlier.
I would very much like to leave this topic now but since you started the theme under 'Vikings' and mention my 'name'in replies I have felt duty bound to continue - please - no more.
All EU members are also members of the WTO, ergo they have offered each other betters terms than WTO and yet have not had to offer the same deal to all other WTO members.
The government figures (haha) at Feb 2018 say that 5.6% of (OUR) NHS staff are Eu nationals and a further 6.9% say they are not British. I have not seen any suggestions that NHS workers will be sent home (and neither have you) after we leave the EU. You may say 'but what about going forward' ? Good point - a competent government would already (from June 2016) have increased medical training places so that we can become more self-sufficient in that area. Unfortunately it has been a long time since we could claim that we had a competent government.
Again, I will not pick up any of your general points on immigration for the reasons given earlier.
I would very much like to leave this topic now but since you started the theme under 'Vikings' and mention my 'name'in replies I have felt duty bound to continue - please - no more.
Re: Vikings
Okay cbe,
I respect your views and we will hear more than enough in the news soon enough, if not already.
I enjoyed the 'ramble' and feel that we addressed some of the issues, namely that it is the less able to defend themselves that often suffer the consequences of either benefits shake-ups or immigration strictures and that the EU Brexit presents yet another minefield on many levels.
We can close this now and I will post no more on it, you have my word.
I respect your views and we will hear more than enough in the news soon enough, if not already.
I enjoyed the 'ramble' and feel that we addressed some of the issues, namely that it is the less able to defend themselves that often suffer the consequences of either benefits shake-ups or immigration strictures and that the EU Brexit presents yet another minefield on many levels.
We can close this now and I will post no more on it, you have my word.
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