G.K. asks if it is Nature or Nurture:
Some people will more easily succumb to drugs, sex and alcohol or criminality whereas others will not.
I suspect it is mainly down to nurture (in this case, poor upbringing).
Lack of moral fibre is (also poor upbringing) the reason why young girls in Hastings are said to have the highest rate of pregnancy outside of marriage in the U.K.
I think Olly is looking at those that could do better but play the system to their advantage - but then isn't that what everyone does if they can and so it is mainly our fault (in society) for being such a 'soft touch' in the first place.
We could do a lot more to deal with miscreants in this category by putting nuisance repeat offenders into a type of 'Army Bootcamp' to give them severe and demanding discipline but ofcourse we don't because we can't.
Older people who fall from grace and turn to the bottle or drugs have probably no friends or family and I am not sure such a sharp shock is the answer as they really need something to live for and to be given a reason to get cleaned up and find something to wake up and look forward to each day instead of hurting themselves.
Therefore I blame society and upbringing (and loss of purpose) and certainly not genetics.
Hastings Forum
His Church, Robertson Street
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Gerry Glyde
- Posts: 452
- Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:56 am
Re: His Church, Robertson Street
Lets remember that there are drug users and drug users and there is not necessarily a simple common denominator. Cocaine or Coke was in the 80s and 90s some of the middle class rich, successful business persons drug of choice for the weekends to get out of their heads and perhaps stay up all weekend and also similar with early types of E.
Coke came down in price and is now, for some mixed with heroin crack/coke and is even cheaper and is therefore more widely taken by lower socio economic groups. Those tend to have to rely on some of the most corrupt dodgy dealers whilst others may be able to ensure the purity and quality of the drug they want .
Zac Efron, celebrity person is said to currently be dealing with his drug usage courageously and bravely and may book himself into a clinic. He can afford it as can Justin Bieber who seems to have similar issues and get the best treatment, not once but several times. Other less deserving druggies, as suggested above may get one chance in recovery and that is it. The latter tend to be looked at less sympathetically than celebs.
Some people in socio-economic groups D and E may perhaps have very little to look forward to in their lives and want to have fun and block out reality for what it is worth. What cause or reason have Zac and his mates got for becoming "druggies"? Another and more older example of a alcoholic is local lad up here Gazza, I saw him a few years ago banging on the door of a pub in Dunston around 10-00 am one morning. A successful guy who also has some feelings (remember his tears at the end of one match) He somehow got himself addicted to alcohol-why?
It is not possible to caste every "druggie" or "alkie" in the same light and also suggest that a simple solution will solve the issues. Some understanding, compassion and tailored solutions are needed.
Coke came down in price and is now, for some mixed with heroin crack/coke and is even cheaper and is therefore more widely taken by lower socio economic groups. Those tend to have to rely on some of the most corrupt dodgy dealers whilst others may be able to ensure the purity and quality of the drug they want .
Zac Efron, celebrity person is said to currently be dealing with his drug usage courageously and bravely and may book himself into a clinic. He can afford it as can Justin Bieber who seems to have similar issues and get the best treatment, not once but several times. Other less deserving druggies, as suggested above may get one chance in recovery and that is it. The latter tend to be looked at less sympathetically than celebs.
Some people in socio-economic groups D and E may perhaps have very little to look forward to in their lives and want to have fun and block out reality for what it is worth. What cause or reason have Zac and his mates got for becoming "druggies"? Another and more older example of a alcoholic is local lad up here Gazza, I saw him a few years ago banging on the door of a pub in Dunston around 10-00 am one morning. A successful guy who also has some feelings (remember his tears at the end of one match) He somehow got himself addicted to alcohol-why?
It is not possible to caste every "druggie" or "alkie" in the same light and also suggest that a simple solution will solve the issues. Some understanding, compassion and tailored solutions are needed.
Re: His Church, Robertson Street
Richard wrote:
G.K. asks if it is Nature or Nurture:
Some people will more easily succumb to drugs, sex and alcohol or criminality whereas others will not.
I suspect it is mainly down to nurture (in this case, poor upbringing).
Lack of moral fibre is (also poor upbringing) the reason why young girls in Hastings are said to have the highest rate of pregnancy outside of marriage in the U.K.
I think Olly is looking at those that could do better but play the system to their advantage - but then isn't that what everyone does if they can and so it is mainly our fault (in society) for being such a 'soft touch' in the first place.
We could do a lot more to deal with miscreants in this category by putting nuisance repeat offenders into a type of 'Army Bootcamp' to give them severe and demanding discipline but ofcourse we don't because we can't.
Older people who fall from grace and turn to the bottle or drugs have probably no friends or family and I am not sure such a sharp shock is the answer as they really need something to live for and to be given a reason to get cleaned up and find something to wake up and look forward to each day instead of hurting themselves.
Therefore I blame society and upbringing (and loss of purpose) and certainly not genetics.
I think weve reached common ground Richard, although Im still not persuaded that gene mutation doesnt come into the equation to some extent.
What we certainly do agree on is how societal change is responsible, and I think its down to two central factors one is that those who make our lives a misery (such as the punks who allowed their staffies and pit bull derivations to roam free in my local park thereby preventing myself, and others, from using it even though I pay top whack council tax and they dont pay any! >:( ), cost the taxpayer a fortune to pursue and eventually contain within a luxurious penal system, thence to give those who work in the lucrative and expanding ex-prisoner industry a job for life, and then . . . do it all over again( DOH! ) do not fear the consequences of their anti-social conduct; and the second is somewhat related in that our society the police, the NHS, the social and public services have become pervasively bureaucratised, and we all know how indolent and incompetent high-ranking bureaucrats are dont we give them a room for their proverbial meetings, and a comfortable office replete with a desk to put their feet up onto, and so long as their paycheque arrives every month for apart from paying lip-service to their paymasters US?? - doing as little as they can for it, and theyre in jobsworth heaven (a work ethic much like politicians' as a matter of fact :laugh: ). And theres a third factor lurking in the background, and its the professional do-gooders who are constantly on the lookout for someone to feel sorry for, and go into compassion overdrive asserting obscure excuses to explain their actions, and of whom politicians run scared and acquiesce to.
I could go on but I dont want to be accused of having a rant! :erm: Its been good talking to you though.
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Anonymous1
- Posts: 271
- Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:40 am
Re: His Church, Robertson Street
"Moral fibre is the inner strength to do what you believe to be right in difficult situations"
so it means nothing concrete. What is "right" is subjective and a matter of opinion. Problems that are perceived as "difficult situations" likewise.
Also:
Pigeon holing groups of people doesn't help IMO. I'm not saying you are a prejudiced thinker on this issue but it sure looks like it from your posts.
How do you know all "punks with staffies" don't pay council tax? The answer is you don't. You have prejudged them.
How do you know all prisoners reoffend and don't fear the consequences? Again the answer is you don't. Prejudged as a group. Also it may pay you to investigate reoffending rates in other countries, say Scandinavian countries. compare levels of perceived luxury against reoffending rates.
How do you know all bureaucrats are indolent and incompetent. You don't. prejudged.
"compassion overdrive. obscure excuses". go and talk to those less fortunate than yourself, talk to those trying to help, use your reasoning to find some answers.
instead of rounding up convenient groups of people and tarring them all with the same brush using pejorative labels.
Try:
Investigating, finding facts (difficult in politics granted), talk to others, look at research, find evidence.
so it means nothing concrete. What is "right" is subjective and a matter of opinion. Problems that are perceived as "difficult situations" likewise.
Also:
Pigeon holing groups of people doesn't help IMO. I'm not saying you are a prejudiced thinker on this issue but it sure looks like it from your posts.
How do you know all "punks with staffies" don't pay council tax? The answer is you don't. You have prejudged them.
How do you know all prisoners reoffend and don't fear the consequences? Again the answer is you don't. Prejudged as a group. Also it may pay you to investigate reoffending rates in other countries, say Scandinavian countries. compare levels of perceived luxury against reoffending rates.
How do you know all bureaucrats are indolent and incompetent. You don't. prejudged.
"compassion overdrive. obscure excuses". go and talk to those less fortunate than yourself, talk to those trying to help, use your reasoning to find some answers.
instead of rounding up convenient groups of people and tarring them all with the same brush using pejorative labels.
Try:
Investigating, finding facts (difficult in politics granted), talk to others, look at research, find evidence.
Re: His Church, Robertson Street
"Moral Fibre" is what we are imbued with as children, to allow us to make sensible decisions in the face of temptation.
If we don't know the difference between right and wrong then something has gone badly astray in society.
Children want to be part of a group with their mates so they are often lured into supressing feelings of wrong-doing in order to be respected.
As for the antisocial behaviour it does occur in groups and in solitary individuals, the fact that we stereotype certain people is a facet of human perception which must have some value or it would not exist.
But I agree it is easy to make mistakes and we have to use it sparingly or we get into all manner of the following:
1. Racism
2. Homophobia
3. Sexism (what man hasn't said "typical, a woman driver"?)
4. Religious intolerance
Everything should be taken on its merits and examined for lessons to be learned and without prejudice - what a happy society we would then be living in.
If we don't know the difference between right and wrong then something has gone badly astray in society.
Children want to be part of a group with their mates so they are often lured into supressing feelings of wrong-doing in order to be respected.
As for the antisocial behaviour it does occur in groups and in solitary individuals, the fact that we stereotype certain people is a facet of human perception which must have some value or it would not exist.
But I agree it is easy to make mistakes and we have to use it sparingly or we get into all manner of the following:
1. Racism
2. Homophobia
3. Sexism (what man hasn't said "typical, a woman driver"?)
4. Religious intolerance
Everything should be taken on its merits and examined for lessons to be learned and without prejudice - what a happy society we would then be living in.
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