His Church, Robertson Street

[Olly]

Richard wrote:
It is patently obvious that drugs and alcohol can affect anyone and therefore to be judgemental is to deny the "there but for the grace of God" attitude which I believe in as it allows for all people to be included as equals rather than excluded on any account.
Whether a man is fallen from a high place or not is immaterial to me.
I am not particularly religious but can understand the sensible quotes from the Bible and believe many have great usefulness, such as "Seek and ye shall find" being one of my favourites.
Another that springs to mind on this matter is as follows:

"let he who is without sin, cast the first stone".

so let us not be hypocritical just ignoring the man in the gutter because he has not been a bastion of society.
It really doesn't matter what is the cause, if a man is drowning he is drowning.

Actually I am 'without sin', and I find it quite easy; in fact it's so easy that I'd advise those who ask for forgiveness of theirs every Sunday morning to try it too, then they can find something more worthwhile to do with the time!! And as to the implied criticism - I'm not a holier-than-thou moralising hypocrite, but I make no apologies for being pragmatic, and that's at the other end of the scale. As to the 'drowning man' comparitor - if you've told him to keep away from the deep end because you know he can't swim, but he jumps in anyway, then that was his choice and his alone - nobody else's!!! And to justify that assertion lest anyone thinks I'm a heartless individual - if I were standing there when he did so, I'd pull him out. Here's another biblical passage to contemplate Richard - 'The meek shall inherit the earth.' Surely you don't subscribe to that one?

[Richard]

I think the beatitude (from a Sermon on the Mount) about "the meek" perhaps refers to the idea that those who are gentle, subserviant, downtrodden and helping of others are more important than those who seek power and riches and who think they can buy their way into everything_ _ _
Those who are at the bottom of the pile are just as, if not more, important than those who are able to carve out a nice place for themselves (on earth.)
It's a simple idea but seems at odds with today's rat-race mentaility of succeeding mainly by trampling over others and stabbing people in the back at every opportunity, perhaps.
Maybe more a call to ask those who are able and clever and powerful to remember those who have little and are cared for even less.
I'm not trying to be righteous or pretending to be above greed and arrogance myself, Olly, but sometimes we should stop and look around us and wonder what we are doing with our stampede for money and property if it is at the expense of others.

There are of course many wealthy people and organisations who give money to Charity in recognition of this their duty.

[Olly]

Richard wrote:
I think the beatitude (from a Sermon on the Mount) about "the meek" perhaps refers to the idea that those who are gentle, subserviant, downtrodden and helping of others are more important than those who seek power and riches and who think they can buy their way into everything_ _ _
Those who are at the bottom of the pile are just as, if not more, important than those who are able to carve out a nice place for themselves (on earth.)
It's a simple idea but seems at odds with today's rat-race mentaility of succeeding mainly by trampling over others and stabbing people in the back at every opportunity, perhaps.
Maybe more a call to ask those who are able and clever and powerful to remember those who have little and are cared for even less.
I'm not trying to be righteous or pretending to be above greed and arrogance myself, Olly, but sometimes we should stop and look around us and wonder what we are doing with our stampede for money and property if it is at the expense of others.

There are of course many wealthy people and organisations who give money to Charity in recognition of this their duty.

I'll tell you something Richard - if anyone fell on hard times through no fault of their own, they wouldn't find a better and more constant friend than me. As for the endemic greed we hear about every day, well I find it worrying: wanting more is natural and instinctive, but irrational greed, where enough is never enough, is a form of mental illness. Indeed it's yet another addiction. But 'Charity'? I'm afraid it's simply Big Business these days, and I stopped giving around 5 years ago with the exception of (for personal reasons) the MS Society.

[Richard]

Hi there Olly !!
All thes things we discuss have been known about for millenia and that is why religion developed first and foremost as the 'moral policeman' to curb man's instinct to behave like the base animal that he is, under a thin veneer of civilisation.
"Lord of the Flies" springs to mind as an example of how human nature behaves in the wild.
We all have potential for behaving well or badly on many levels and what we see around us is the result of human nature 'writ large'.

I agree with some of what you say but who are we to judge ?

[Richard]

as for old-fashioned "Greed" it pales into nothing when you consider what is going on for people with property who get lucky without really trying.

Some people in Cambridge bought a new detached family house on the south side of city for about GBP790K just over two years ago.
They're selling, marketed at GBP1.35mill, and now standing back with their mouths open watching a bidding war between cash buyers wanting to pay even more mad prices, seriously bad news for anyone living in Cambridge who's not on property ladder.
Some parts of London have similar "problems.





Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana.

[Olly]

Richard wrote:
Hi there Olly !!

Hey Richard - it's good talking to you.

All these things we discuss have been known about for millenia and that is why religion developed first and foremost as the 'moral policeman' to curb man's instinct to behave like the base animal that he is, under a thin veneer of civilisation

Some good points, but the religious connection to curb the base instincts you mention is (in my opinion, obviously!) an unintended but welcome consequence of it, and that all religions have been and still are predicated on the human fear of death - that it isn't the end of anything but the beginning, and that if you've been 'good' heaven and its angels await. I actually do believe that there is something else after we've shuffled off this mortal coil, but nothing like the opportunist clerics who run them would have us believe: I think that, as with the phenomena of space and the working of the human brain (its cerebral rather than the physiological aspect of it), it's something that mankind is destined never to discover nor comprehend.

"Lord of the Flies" springs to mind as an example of how human nature behaves in the wild.

I've never read it but I know the storyline: I have long despaired of the unbelievable things we homo sapiens - not only can conceive, but put into practice too. But as they say - 'It takes all kinds to make a world.'

We all have potential for behaving well or badly on many levels and what we see around us is the result of human nature 'writ large'.

Indeed, but thankfully the overwhelming majority of us toe the line?

I agree with some of what you say but who are we to judge ?

To 'judge' would be to condemn wrongdoing . . . all I think we're doing is discussing the reasons for unconventionality; some individuals are genetically anti-social, shiftless, irresponsible, psychopathic, and evil, and there ain't nothing anyone can do to make them conform.

[Richard]

Olly we are getting a bit legless here.

I u/s you believe in a short, sharp, shock for people with drug/alcohol problems which perhaps can be administered in places like Thailand but we can agree that here it would be difficult owing to Human Rights and etcetera.
Although we have 'programmes' for people who want to recover.
Whether those who cause problems in society with or (without drugs) are intrinsically hard-wired to cause mischief to themselves or others remains to be seen but if you relegate it all down to genetics you are possibly trying to avoid the real issues of people with personal problems who need help.



Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana.

[Olly]

Richard wrote:
Olly we are getting a bit legless here.

I u/s you believe in a short, sharp, shock for people with drug/alcohol problems

Unless you've got a better idea?

which perhaps can be administered in places like Thailand but we can agree that here it would be difficult owing to Human Rights

With 'rights' comes 'responsibility' - one can't work without the other.

we have 'programmes' for people who want to recover.

They might want to recover, but the question is Are they prepared to suffer the withdrawal symptoms that must come first? More to the point, do they have the moral fibre to see it through?

Whether those who cause problems in society with or (without drugs) are intrinsically hard-wired to cause mischief to themselves or others remains to be seen but if you relegate it all down to genetics you are possibly trying to avoid the real issues of people with personal problems who need help.

I've just looked up the words 'psychopath' and 'sociopath' - it's all there.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/psychopath

Short of brain surgery nothing can be done for them.

[Anonymous1]

too many flaws in these arguments

Free will or determinism?

If (as you say) it's genetic then we are trapped in a circle of repetitive behaviour. No solutions, no free will, no chance, no responsibility or rights and short sharp shocks won't work. it's a done deal from birth.

If it's environmental influences, i.e. family, society or other influences then you have to accept that these things can change and so can the outcome.

What's it to be folks?
also, what is Moral fibre???? I'm lost on that one Olly, please clarify.

[Olly]

Fair points I suppose, GK, although I don't really know how either of them can be countered or managed to the advantage of the 'victim'. Some may be able to change, others won't - and many don't want to change, but will cunningly exploit misguided sympathy. There's nowt so queer as folk, as they say?

"Moral fibre is the inner strength to do what you believe to be right in difficult situations"

http://www.usingenglish.com/reference/i ... fibre.html