Carlisle Pub (Pelham Arms), Denmark Arms and Public Shelter

[david_russell]

Hi woo,

When were you last in the Halton Tavern ? Must have been a long time ago ?? Didnt it close in the 60s ?

Can you reply to the 'Pub Memories' thread.

David.

[Terry]

The Denmark Arms fascinates me. The only clear picture I've seen of that place was taken after the Luftwaffe visited it. A pile of rubble..

[david_russell]

There isnt much info on the Denmark so far. It obviously stood in Denmark place in the Homedene area. Possibly on the corner.

I know it was fully licensed in 1864 and in 1879 the main customers were boatmen and fish hawkers. The police were always complaining about the latter leaving their barrows outside and blocking the road until they were called out by the police or a customer for some whelks. Shell fish were sold in half pints I believe.

The pub advertised itself in the 1892 Directory (p543) next to another ad for the it's big brother the Carlisle which had 'just been modernised'. This fits in with your info above.

The pub was granted a 'Music and Singing' license for 'wireless concerts only' in 1923. Imagine going to the pub to listen to the radio ! Not quite the same as Engine, Clutch and Gearbox at the Smugglers !

In 1936 landlord Wiliam Drury had been there for 16 years suggesting stability.

But there was another third pub or beer house in the Carlisle/Homedene complex called The Prince of Wales, which stood behind the Denmark in Pelham Street. And yet another beer house called the Watermans Arms.

More info coming when I find it.

[david_russell]

I think The Prince of Wales, Pelham Street was located behind the Denmark Arms. It seems to have been the 'naughty boy' of the three pubs with several fines for drinking 'out of hours' in the 1860s and 70s. It never achieved a full license and remained a simple beer house and lodging house. Never the less it sold spirits from under the counter and in 1878 the landlord was charged for doing just that.

The case was based on the evidence of a witness who turned out to be an enquiry agent employed by the Hastings Licenced Victuallers Association who were protecting their members interests ie: fully licenced public houses. They were probably acting on behalf of the Carlisle or the Denmark.

The witness said he had "taken a bed, played cards and drank rum" in the P of W but the case was dismissed.

In 1891 the landlord was fined for out of hours drinking on a Sunday and in 1902 the P of W was described by the police as a brothel and the license forfeited.

It is not to be confused with three other pubs of the same name located in Bohemia Road, Cross Street and Bourne Walk.

There was also another beer house in the block at one time called the Waterman's Arms but little is known about it.

[Terry]

Thank you David. I bought a copy of your book yesterday and came accross your reference to the Prince of Wales in Pelham Street. I haven't read the book properly yet, but the Watermans Arms is a new name. I didn't know there were any other pubs in Pelham Street apart from the Denmark. You also mention a Prince of Wales in Bohemia Road, would this be the building on the corner of Tower Road which looks like it mght once have been a pub and later became a furniture shop and now appears to be flats?

The landlord of the Denmark Arms is listed in Dead Pubs as G Goldsmith in 1866 and G Goldsmith is also listed as landlord of the Wellington in 1859, but although it seems likely, I have nothing to suggest it was the same man. A James Goldsmith is also listed in a census of the time as the proprietor of the Denmark Lodging house in Denmark Place, although I have nothing to suggest he was related.

As I said, the only photo I have seen of the Denmark Arms is when it became a pile of rubble and from that it can be seen that it was indeed on the corner where Homedane House now stands. an image can be found at http://www.dengates.com/ under the Hastings at war link, although they describe it as being in Denmark Place.

The Denmark was at 33 Pelham Street and 32 was listed as a lodging house in the mid 19th century, I have the name James Mills as lodging house proprietor. There were also lodging houses at No.30 under Stephen Harman and at No.28 under Henry Carpenter. No.33 appears to have been the highest number in the street. No.1 is on the opposite side and almost in Wellington Place and No.2 next door and so on until 15-20, which is the old Woolworths building. The Harold Place underground public toilet stood where 34 upwards would logically have been, but I don't know if there was anything there before the toilets were built.

There is also a census entry for a William Bowra listed as a beer retailer in Pelham Street, but I don't have a house number and the term beer retailer could mean a number of things.

Pelham Street was a busy place at one time with a number of shops and industrial premises, possibly with lodgings above them, so I'm not surprised that the police objected if barrows blocked it. There was even a fire station up there at one time!

I have also come across the following references to the Pelham Arms:

The Watering Places of Great Britain published in the 1840s says "At the other Inns in this Watering-place [Hastings], viz. the PELHAM ARMS, the CROWN, the KING'S HEAD, the QUEEN'S HEAD, the ANCHOR, the CUTTER, and the HASTINGS ARMS, company will find attention and convenience, either for a long or short period, the charges being not only reasonable, but every thing of the best."

The 1867 Kellys Directory says: the principal inns [of Hastings are], the Anchor, York, Cutter, Pelham Arms, and King's Head.

Richard Chandler seems to have built the Pelham arms Next to a house he rented to someone called Stephen (or Steven) Catt and it seems likely that he incorporated this house into his pub, but I doubt if there is much, if anything left of that building.

I am indebted to the Chandler and Lewes families of Berkshire and Australia for much of the information presented here. They are descendants of the Chandler family of Hastings and have published some details of their family tree on the internet, but I have no record of the website addresses.

Richard Chandler was born in about 1773 and married Mary Edwards in 1803. They had no less than seven children: Sarah (born 1808), Mary (born 1809), twins Henry and Richard (born 1812), Thomas (born 1817), Charles (born 1818) and Frederick (born 1825 when poor Mary must have been in her late 30s at least). Richard Chandler died at some time between 1832 and 1841 (the various Chandler clans seem to disagree about the date), and Richard junior inherited the pub. There is a Thomas Chandler listed as the landlord of another Pelham Arms in 19th century London, but I suspect that is a coincidental red herring.

Richard Chandler junior married either Barbera Thwaites or Barbera Stubberfield, once again the Chandler clans disagree. Both the Stubberfield and Thwaites families were prominent in Hastings at that time. Another prominent family was the Ransoms and Thomas Chandler emigrated to Australia and married 16 year old Mary Angel Ransom in Sidney, hence the Australian connection. The Australian Chandlers say that Mary Ransom was from Sussex, but do not go further. I don't know if Mary was a member of the Ransom family of Hastings, but it's tempting to imagine them eloping to Australia against their families wishes, but that's probably just be a romantic fantasy. The Ransoms also established the Hastings News local newspaper.

Apparently Richard Chandler Senior was a dealer in marine supplies and may have held a pilot's licence to bring ships to and from the sea at Hastings, so he would probably known the Ransom and Thwaites families as both were involved in shipbuilding.

[patrick]

84 Bohemia is now The Labour Party offices, no comment !,the one on the corner, 76 ? was the Bohemia Arms..There was also a P.o.Wales at 15 Western Road in 1933,still there?

[patrick]

Forgot to ask, any information ? on the Pilot at 51 Queens Road, now an electrical shop Hannington and Gilbert_ _ _

[david_russell]

Thanks Terry. Can you post the comments you sent me on the Royal Albion on the albion thread please ? Ive mislaid them. David

[david_russell]

Patrick, Theres a very nice picture of the Pilot coming soon. Must of been a great pub.

[Terry]

The Privateer seems to have been an interesting place. It was listed as being in Wellington Mews in some references and in Elford Street in others, so I assume it must have been behind the cheap shop in Queens Road where Fountain's car park is now. There was also a Palmerston Inn at 75, which doesn't look anything like a pub to me, but life's like that sometimes. I can't help wondering if that's a mistake and the number should be 85, which is now a hairdressers. That does look like it might have been a pub. Both these pubs are beyond living memory now. If only we could borrow Dr Who's Time machine for a few days!