Carlisle Pub (Pelham Arms), Denmark Arms and Public Shelter

[david_russell]

[img://www.hastingsforum.co.uk/forums/sf_attachments/Carlisle_Cup_1899.jpg]

[david_russell]

Terry,

The above is a drawing of the football cup donated to the town by Carlisle landlord Ernest Chase in 1899 ?
It's a poor drawing but iv'e got the artists name somewhere. Don't know why they didn't use a photographer ?
Apparently he used to fill it with champagne for the winning team. No wonder he went broke !

I wonder what happened to it ??

[david_russell]

Text accompanying the drawing:-

'The above is an exact representation of the Challenge Cup presented to the Hastings and St Leonards Football Association by Mr Ernest.E.Chase the energetic and popular proprietor of the Carlisle Hotel. It was in January last that Mr Chase purchased the Carlisle and since that time he has made such elaborate improvements that now the establishment is one of the most popular rendezvous in the town. The value of the cup is twenty five guineas* and in making this handsome present in the interest of our favourite game Mr Chase is only following his previous efforts in other directions to acquire popularity with Hastingers which needless to mention he has done. He is a member of several Orders amongst which are the Masons, Buffaloes, Foresters and Druids. Formerly he was the proprietor of the Lamb, Holborn where he was very successful, a similar remark applying to other licensed houses he has had under his charge. That a brilliant competition for the possession of the cup will ensue we are positive, and so far some very close matches have been played. The trophy has been on view for some time at Mr N.Hall's, Castle Street, and next week it will be displayed in the windows of the Gaiety Cafe, the proprietor Mr Alf. H. Kent being a staunch supporter of football'.

HSL Observer 28/10/1899

*about GBP2000 in todays money

[david_russell]

Wikipedia says Hastings Town FC were founded in 1894 as Rock-a-Nore ? Is this the above Association ? Anyone know the history ? Old photographs ?

[david_russell]

Terry:

This document from the National Archive has Carlisle landlord Richard Chandler's name on it. Dated November 1836.

Agreement by Sarah Tutt of Hastings, widow, Ann Locke of Hastings, widow, William Ransome the younger, of Hastings, shipbuilder, William Brasier the elder of Hastings, labourer. William Picknell of Hastings, carpenter, Richard Chandler of Hastings, victualler and Mercy Sisley of Hastings, widow.

'To pay the corporation 1s each per annum on 29th September for the wooden groyne they have erected on the stone beach, St Mary in the Castle, opposite their property to the west of the chalk road, endorsed the document numbered 458 referred to in the affidavit of Thomas Sansum Hide, 30th May 1873 in Mayor of Hastings v Ivall in Chancery.'

[terry_again]

Hi David, it is me, but for some obscure reason I can't log in under my old name, so I've had to re-register.

I knew about that one. But which Richard Chandler is it? The father or the son?

There's a whole kaboodle of entries in the national Archive relating to planning permission, compulsorary purchases and so on. If you dig you'll discover the Carlisle was sold by Cobbs Brewery of Maidstone in 1922, but it doesn't say who to (I assume it was the Star Brewery), yet in the HSLO it states that Francis Henry Bishop owned the pub in 1919 when he applied for planning permission to extend the pub. This question of who owned it is all rather confusing, It had clearly passed to the Star brewery by 1930.

From the National Archives:
Former reference: DH/B 83/395/7

Conditions of access: Deed of purchase not deposited

Contents:
Purchased on 15 Aug 1930 for GBP2000 from Violet Eva Dupierry by the Highways Committee, includes sale particulars for 5 Carlisle Villas, 2 Marine Cottages and a quarter share in 1-2 Pelham Sea View Cottages, 22 Jun 1886, papers concerning the lease of flats in Cavendish House, agreement for transfer of the Carlisle Hotel, Pelham Street, by the Star Brewery Company to Hastings Corporation for street improvement in exchange for other adjacent lands and including an agreement for the demolition of 5-6 Carlisle Villas and Cavendish House, 20 Jan 1931

The above is clearly to do with the road widening sceme that took place 1930/31. It's important as this was about the time the pub was rebuilt into something resembling its current form. Other documents relating to Francis Henry (Harry) Bishop suggested he moved out of the pub for a while (presumeably when the demolishon work was going on and the pub was being rebuilt) then moved back in again. He moves out and back in again during 1934. I assume this was when the extensive refurbishment you mention in your book was being carried out.

I've no information about Violet Eva Dupierry other than she was originally from Belgium and naturalised British. She appears to have inherited her property from Emma Mastin (could that be one of the Mastin family that owned a department store opposite the fountain?). It might be a red herring, but sometimes these snippits of info do lead somewhere as you've already said.

Oddly there's another compulsary purchase of the Carlisle for GBP12;500 in 1952. I'm led to believe that this was for the land the pub stands on rather than the pub itself and this land was then leased back to the pub. Not being a lawyer, it's all very confusing.

I believe Harry Bishop was chairman of a company called Hastings Estates and Investment Company Limited, which explains why he enters so many Deeds of Covenant with the council concerning dozens of buildings in the town. These are also recordred in the NA.

The London Gazatte records the company going into liquidation on 11th May 1957 with Francis Henry Bishop as chairman. He must have been getting on a bit by then.

[david_russell]

The information that I have is that Richard Chandler (2) took over from RC (1) in 1851. I assume RC (1) died that year and that the above agreement (1839) is with RC (1).

Perhaps they needed a groyne on the beach to protect their property which could have included the Carlisle, the shipbuilding yard of Ransome and Ridley and other, residential property ?

The Bishop family seem a formidable bunch. Further research on the register of licensees for Hastings shows that he/they were licensees of (so far) at least five Hastings pubs. These were:- the Carlisle,1912-1956, the Nelson 1937-1939; the Kings Head, (Winchelsea Road), 1928-1931 and 1937-1939; the Rising Sun, (East Parade) 1925-1959 and the Provincial
(now Brass Monkey), 1914-1924 and 1928-1961. All with several business partners. Phew !

And then there is all the local business you mention !

[terry_again]

I suspect you're spot on about that groyne being to protect property. There was a great deal of damage to seafront properties by the sea and storms back then. There was a particularly bad storm in 1891 and the residents of Carlisle Villas petitioned the council to repair a groyne that had been damaged. I can't help wondering if storm damage had some bearing on the alterations/rebuilding Tom Brown did in 1892 when he changed the name of the Pelham Arms, which seems to have been trading as the Pelham Hotel (perhaps unofficially) at the time, to the Carlisle Hotel.

I have a birth date for Richard Chandler (1) from the Australian branch of the Chandler family for about 1773 (the exact date is uncertain), so he would have been about 78 in 1851. He married Mary Edwards in 1803 and they had no less than seven children: Sarah (born 1808), Mary (born 1809), twins Henry and Richard (born 1812), Thomas (born 1817), Charles (born 1818) and Frederick (born 1825). RC (1) held a pilot's licence to take ships to and from the sea at Hastings and also dealt in Marine stores.

Thomas ended up in Australia where he married Mary Angel Ransom! (Hence the Austalian connection) Apparantly she was from Sussex, but no further information is given, so whilst it's easy to speculate that she was a member of the Hastings Ransom Family, it is no more than that: pure speculation.

The NA also records a letter from Inspector John Campbell to the Watch Committee asking for payment of one moiety on the conviction of Richard Chandler and to claim the attention of the Bench to some very dangerous places leading from the Barrack ground to Mr Wyatt's Farm dhbe/DH/B/136/46 13 Oct 1836. This may be related to the groyne incident, it doesn't say.

Regarding FH Bishop:

The London Gazette has a record of Francis Henry Bishop disolving a partnership in an auction business trading as WG Morgan at 110 Wandsworth Road London on 18th October 1924 by mutual consent with William George Morgan. 108-110 Wandsworth Road is now a pub called Stockers, but I haven't looked into its history, so I don't know if it was a pub back then.

Dead pubs records the Pelham Arms as having a general servant called Anne Bishop in the 1880s, although I've no reason at all to think she might have been related to FHB. It does seem rather unlikely.

[terry_again]

The birth dates that have been obscured by annoying little faces are 1808 and 1818.

[david_russell]

Terry,

There are few references on the Waterman's Arms.

HSL News 28/8/1857 reports bad timekeeping by Waterman's Arms, Pelham Street, landlord Ebenezer Cobby.

HSL Chronicle 2/9/1857 ditto in Pelham Street.

William Bowra BH, Pelham Street is in 1866 and 1867 Directories

Waterman's Arms is not mentioned in the licensees registrar which starts in 1872 for beerhouses.

But Prince of Wales is:-

1872-1892 John Cornelius
1892-1901 William Mitten.

So, Maybe the Waterman's became the Prince of Wales or it just had a short life ?

Two new references on the Denmark:-

Copy of a letter from the L/L to the licensing magistrate:-

Denmark Hotel
33 Pelham Street
Hastings

October 1st 1940

Dear Sir

Owing to the raid yesterday we had our windows blown in and are unable
to open at night until we are properly fixed up for the blackout again. So
shall be able to open only in the mornings, until everything is in order.
Hoping this will meet with your approval.

I remain

Yours Faithfully

A.H.Drury

And also: in 1931 he purchased the Bell Hotel, Bexhill putting up half the money himself. The Denmark must have been doing alright ?