Alpine Road butchers

[Richard]

It is very interesting to hear about the wealthier families moving into West Hill, Pynlimmon as early as the 1830-1840 period.
This is around the same period as the spread into 'New Town, Hastings'.
And we believe that a certain famous scientist called 'Michael Faraday' spent his annual holidays in the 'new' part of Hastings for a period of some 30 years from circa 1830.

Hastings in those days was, first and foremost, the preserve of the wealthy and / or famous Victorians.
With the insurgence of the wealthy came "the poor man at his gate" willing to offer assistance and make a life in the 'service sector'.
We know that St Leonards was planned deliberately from the outset as a model resort, to cater specifically for the rather wealthy, and not piecemeal, as in the case of Hastings.
But, either way, we have an educative story, with details arising, of the service community following the money.

[jimbreeds]

By 1966 in my other street directory (obviously much later than the photo but someone might be interested), No. 10 Leslie Bailey, Butcher and No. 11 is separately listed as a domestic residence - occupied by "Mrs Johnson".

[Gerry Glyde]

Hi BisleyBullet. You may have mixed up some references and census results; believe me it is easy to do when immersed in family history research.

You wrote that Thomas J was born in 1868 and was living at Manor Rd and working as a butcher, as cited on the 1870 (should be 1871) census. Obviously a very skilled little lad at 2 years old.! I have looked at a Thomas J, father and son, on the 1891 census and found that they were living in Emmanuel Road and indeed the younger Thomas J, born in 1868 is listed as an Assistant Butcher. His father was in a different trade.

The houses in Plynlimmon and Alpine were built around 1874 (I can not find the exact date in my chaotic archive, but I think it is in Hastings Chronicle as well) following the land being given over for development. In 1881, 11 Alpine Road is listed as an Ironmongers.

If my memory serves correct, copyright on written material has a duration of 50 years.

Richard, when I looked at the private school records at the bottom of St Mary's Terrace there were one or two "Honourables", amongst the pupils. I don't know if you have been down the small lane just below St Mary's Terrace but there used to be quite a large house on it's own at the end. It always fascinated me in its decaying state. It had views over the valley.

Thanks for the name of Mr Bailey the butcher who had a very good trade. In addition there was also another butcher close by at the bottom of Vicarage Road in the small cluster of shops. Both had delivery boys on bikes.

[Richard]

I presume that wealthier Victorians, Boarding schools etcetera, in the Plynlimmon area, by the 1830's, received their meat deliveries via butchers along George or All Saints' street, or perhaps from their suppliers direct.
At any rate it appears that butchers did not move into premises in Plynlimmon until well after the railways had arrived and the town, below, was booming.

I have looked at some street dir's which seem broadly in line with census returns:

1880/1 - Eldridge Charles, Bootmaker @ no.s 10/11 Alpine Road
1882 - Ellis, John, Butcher @ no. 10 (Beard, Walter @ no. 11)
1883 - Dir missing
1884 - Vincett, Walter, Butcher with manager Hughes, G.H. @ no's 10/11
1885 - as above
1887 - as above
1888 - not viewed
1889 - not viewed
1890 - Vincett, Walter, Butcher with manager Crouch, C. @ no's 10/11
1891 - 1905 Crouch, C. Butcher
1906 - 1909 - not viewed
1910 - Wildish, S. Butcher with manager Barham, R.

That's as far as my patience ran and, from an earlier post I see that 'Wildish and Barham' were still in business in 1923.

Still no idea if it was called by any name other than the people who ran it at the time?

[jimbreeds]

Brian sent me a high res scan of the photo earlier for my Facebook page so we'll see if anyone on there knows anything about our butchers.

I think there's been no mention so far that the certificate in the middle of the display says "Second Prize".

[Gerry Glyde]

A little more on Charles Crouch. I was looking for anything about competitions or similar for butchers but did not find anything.

I have come across three entries in the Observer about Charles. One in September 1894 he was fined £1 for "furiously driving" his horse and cart in Old London Road. In 1875 when living in St Andrew's Road (now Queen's Rd) at which time he was a butcher, he helped extinguish a serious house fire. In 1891 he was charged with allowing his dog to bite a young boy who lived in the street. He pleaded not guilty and was acquited on the basis that he had sold the dog at the time of the incident. In 1892 he was named as a supplier of meat to the Council for the Borough Sanatorium. So in addition to retail he was supplying meat commercially. Exciting times on the West Hill.

There is a reference to Rowland Barham attending a society wedding where various local councillors and celebrities of the day were guests. (If the reception was meal had he supplied the meat?)


There is also a reference to a Thomas John McConnell who had died on 3 March 1897 (perhaps the butchers father) and the probate was granted to a L McConnell. Note to BisleyBullett. Copies of Probate can be obtained from the Probate Registry details may be obtained from Brighton Registry.

[jimbreeds]

Right. On my HAPP Facebook page someone found Crouch (mentioned by Richard above) in a 1909 trade directory and that he had a shop at 284 Priory Road as well (which, in my '23 directory is run by one W. May). She (Carolyn Proud) also found two other photos online. I haven't attached them here in case someone thinks that they own the photos (I am not familiar with that website or its attitude to photos being downloaded), so I will post the links below instead. ALSO the comments on Rootschat page might help (I haven't read much of it)).

By the way, there are a few C. Crouch entries in the '23 direcrory but not in that area and not butchers. There is however, a S. Wildish with several shops including Alpine Road and I have attached a scan. Also M. Wildish another butcher who may be a relative.

Also another scan I will add because it seems I can only add one attachment to this post.

Links:
Brian's photo on my Facebook page (public access so viewable even to those without Facebook) is here: https://www.facebook.com/HAPP1066/photo ... 9311316625

The first photo of the shop when it is Crouch is here: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=692371.0

The second photo of Crouch's shop is here: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=692371.9

One of these photos has been dated as 1906. See the comments.

Hope this helps Brian.

[jimbreeds]

Barham in 1923, just to prove he was still there.

[jimbreeds]

None of my last two photos help to date Brian's photo though, sadly.
I have just looked for McConnells in the '23 directory but only two and not the one Brian is interested in. Perhaps the earlier directories that Richard looked at have that McConnell listed at an address. (I wondered if he might have lived at or near to the Alpine Road shop).

[Richard]

Let me get this straight.

We believe Thomas J. McConnell was born in (unknown date) and died in 1897, he worked as a butcher, and lived at one time in Emmanuel road, with his son, born 1868, who died in 1933, called L. McConnell, who worked, in the family business, as an assistant butcher.
Is that we are suggesting?
I can look for these names and addresses in the directories, but what are we hoping to show?