The Hastings to London line twists and turns, has many steep gradients, single track secitons and speed restrictions, mainly between Hastings and Tonbridge. That section would have to be completely realigned for high speed trains. A 60mph speed retriction is still 60mph whatever train you use. You're really looking at an entirely new railway and that would cost hundreds of millions of pounds and as Marina says, it simply isn't going to happen. If it did, the travelling public would have to pay for it and the fares would probably be beyond the reach of most travellers, so be careful what you wish for.
Hastings Forum
High speed rail link
Re: High speed rail link
I believe that when the line was originally built the tunnels on the Hastings Line were made on the small side,deliberately so that money could be saved. and cannot be enlarged to take double traffic and this is the reason why it takes longer to reach London..
Re: High speed rail link
It's a litte more complex than that.
After the line opened, it was found that the contractors who built the tunnels between Hastings and Tonbridge had not lined the tunnels to the proper specifications and extra layers of bricks had to be put in, making them narrower than usual. For a hundred years or so trains had to be specially made to fit the line: The famous Schools Class steam engines and Hastings Diesels for instance. In the 80s, the track through the tunnels was singled so normal sized trains could get through. As patvick say's the line was built on the cheap and goes over and around the hills instead of through them.
With the current speed restrictions it's just possible for trains to reach London in an hour and 20 minutes, but that would cut out most of the stops on route and would probably be uneconomical unless the fares were very high indeed.
The old line from Stone Cross to Polegate on the other line made it possible to miss Eastbourne completely, but this was lifted in the 60s and a long forgotton proposed line from West St. Leonards direct to just north of Hayward's Heath, cutting out Eastbourne, Lewes and Hayward's Heath, was never built.
It may be that the day will come when the quickest route to the capital will be over the Marshes to Ashford and from there to London, but it's unlikely to cut much off the journey time, unless you're travelling further north from King's Cross as I gather the proposed high speed route from Ashford will go to St. Pacreas rather than Charing Cross.
After the line opened, it was found that the contractors who built the tunnels between Hastings and Tonbridge had not lined the tunnels to the proper specifications and extra layers of bricks had to be put in, making them narrower than usual. For a hundred years or so trains had to be specially made to fit the line: The famous Schools Class steam engines and Hastings Diesels for instance. In the 80s, the track through the tunnels was singled so normal sized trains could get through. As patvick say's the line was built on the cheap and goes over and around the hills instead of through them.
With the current speed restrictions it's just possible for trains to reach London in an hour and 20 minutes, but that would cut out most of the stops on route and would probably be uneconomical unless the fares were very high indeed.
The old line from Stone Cross to Polegate on the other line made it possible to miss Eastbourne completely, but this was lifted in the 60s and a long forgotton proposed line from West St. Leonards direct to just north of Hayward's Heath, cutting out Eastbourne, Lewes and Hayward's Heath, was never built.
It may be that the day will come when the quickest route to the capital will be over the Marshes to Ashford and from there to London, but it's unlikely to cut much off the journey time, unless you're travelling further north from King's Cross as I gather the proposed high speed route from Ashford will go to St. Pacreas rather than Charing Cross.
Re: High speed rail link
There is no need for a new High Speed (HS) line. What is needed are improvements to the services on the existing ones. It is currently quicker (albeit a bit more expensive) to get to London via Ashford and HS1 Javelins.
SHRIMP is the new Hastings group which, in conjunction with other user groups, is campaigning for improved rail services which we think are essential for Hastings regeneration. We need a 'can do - will do' attitude from the rail industry.
Join in at http://www.1066shrimprail.org.uk/
Hastings needs your support.
SHRIMP is the new Hastings group which, in conjunction with other user groups, is campaigning for improved rail services which we think are essential for Hastings regeneration. We need a 'can do - will do' attitude from the rail industry.
Join in at http://www.1066shrimprail.org.uk/
Hastings needs your support.
Re: High speed rail link
Unfortunately regeneration has become a dirty word for many people as it quite often means everything simply becomes more expensive and flashy with little or no real improvement.
Getting freight back on the rails is a non-starter, it isn't going to happen, so road links also need improvement.
Many of the speed limits on the railway line will only become higher if it is realigned completely and is it worth cutting ten or even twenty minutes off the journey time to London if fares increase by 50% as a result? Improvements will not be cheap and someone will have to pick up the bill. As I say, be very careful what you wish for.
Perhaps we should be asking why so many people need to travel to London in the first place. Why can't we have better jobs and better shops locally? Ashford has done well by being on the Channel Tunnel route. We have to face the fact that Hastings is no longer important as a holiday destination and there is little here that can't be found elsewhere. The town has to be dragged kicking and screaming into the twenty first century with realistic schemes that provide an income for its people 12 months of each year and are affordable. We don't want 2000 new homes unless there are at least 6000 permenant new jobs to go with them.
If we can make the town an attractive place to do business, improved transport links will follow. Of course, it is a chicken and egg situation as no-one wants to invest in a town with poor transport links, but at the same time no-one is going to build links that lead to the middle of nowhere.
Perhaps the way forward would be to reinstate the Polegate loop and improve the line from Ashford to Brighton and the west. Hastings would then become an important town on that route and more likely to attract investment in other areas.
Getting freight back on the rails is a non-starter, it isn't going to happen, so road links also need improvement.
Many of the speed limits on the railway line will only become higher if it is realigned completely and is it worth cutting ten or even twenty minutes off the journey time to London if fares increase by 50% as a result? Improvements will not be cheap and someone will have to pick up the bill. As I say, be very careful what you wish for.
Perhaps we should be asking why so many people need to travel to London in the first place. Why can't we have better jobs and better shops locally? Ashford has done well by being on the Channel Tunnel route. We have to face the fact that Hastings is no longer important as a holiday destination and there is little here that can't be found elsewhere. The town has to be dragged kicking and screaming into the twenty first century with realistic schemes that provide an income for its people 12 months of each year and are affordable. We don't want 2000 new homes unless there are at least 6000 permenant new jobs to go with them.
If we can make the town an attractive place to do business, improved transport links will follow. Of course, it is a chicken and egg situation as no-one wants to invest in a town with poor transport links, but at the same time no-one is going to build links that lead to the middle of nowhere.
Perhaps the way forward would be to reinstate the Polegate loop and improve the line from Ashford to Brighton and the west. Hastings would then become an important town on that route and more likely to attract investment in other areas.
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andrew_leach
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:08 pm
Re: High speed rail link
It may seem like a chicken and egg situation, but actually it isn't. Investment in Hastings won't come unless people can get there and back to London fast and efficiently. Transport links need to be improved first.
As you say, the Charing Cross line is a non-starter: the singling, gradients and alignment don't lend themselves to high-speed trains or to improvements (you can't dual the tunnels, for example, as stated earlier in this topic).
Reinstating the Willingdon Chord is a possibility, and would certainly help with freight, but most passenger traffic is to/from Eastbourne and there would still need to be trains attached somewhere. If that were to be done at Polegate instead of Eastbourne, it wouldn't help timings from Hastings much if at all and it would be a positive blight on journeys to Eastbourne.
The best course of action would be to upgrade the line between Hastings and Ashford. That would enable High Speed trains to serve Hastings and Eastbourne and maybe even Brighton and would provide very real benefits in linking Hastings and the Sussex Coast to the Thames Gateway. That's already a regenerative area because of the Channel Tunnel link, HS1 etc and, let's face it, it's where the 6000 jobs are likely to be at least until Hastings is better connected. Dualling the Marshlink is possible; the gradient and alignment are far more amenable to High Speed use than the line to Charing Cross. Only Doleham to Hastings and around Stone Cross would need to be slow.
What is needed is the political will to do it. SHRIMP, BRAG and East Coastway Commuters Group are pressing for that. Why not join them?
As you say, the Charing Cross line is a non-starter: the singling, gradients and alignment don't lend themselves to high-speed trains or to improvements (you can't dual the tunnels, for example, as stated earlier in this topic).
Reinstating the Willingdon Chord is a possibility, and would certainly help with freight, but most passenger traffic is to/from Eastbourne and there would still need to be trains attached somewhere. If that were to be done at Polegate instead of Eastbourne, it wouldn't help timings from Hastings much if at all and it would be a positive blight on journeys to Eastbourne.
The best course of action would be to upgrade the line between Hastings and Ashford. That would enable High Speed trains to serve Hastings and Eastbourne and maybe even Brighton and would provide very real benefits in linking Hastings and the Sussex Coast to the Thames Gateway. That's already a regenerative area because of the Channel Tunnel link, HS1 etc and, let's face it, it's where the 6000 jobs are likely to be at least until Hastings is better connected. Dualling the Marshlink is possible; the gradient and alignment are far more amenable to High Speed use than the line to Charing Cross. Only Doleham to Hastings and around Stone Cross would need to be slow.
What is needed is the political will to do it. SHRIMP, BRAG and East Coastway Commuters Group are pressing for that. Why not join them?
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raychapman
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:36 pm
The EASTBOURNE, HASTINGS, BEXHILL, ASHFORD, ST PANCRAS FAST
Hastings has a great blend of uniqueness and character with the old town, castle, history associated with 1066, Burton St Leonards, the largest beach launched fishing fleet in Europe and also the forthcoming Jerwood Gallery. Research shows that inbound tourism growth will continue with the strong euro and the UK outbound tourism will decline as holidaymakers stay within the UK due to weak pound for the foreseeable future.
Recently, much investment has gone into Hastings with new World Class Office spaces, University Centre Hastings and there is much more to come, the issue is that people cant access the town as well as Ashford, Brighton, Redhill and Crawley and this is a determining variable when businesses choose a place to locate. Therefore Terry your absolutely right there is correlation between good transport links and a good business environment and this is now happening with the developing Hastings business quarter. We need businesses to feel comfortable that when they choose Hastings, they can employ local skilled people and apprentices, however also have easy access for business visitors as well as employ people from outside of the town should those skills not be available within at this time.
The extension of the High Speed Javelins to Eastbourne, Bexhill, Hastings and Rye will provide a boost to these areas and offer inbound and outbound commuter plus tourist opportunities from the Thames Gateway at Ebbsfleet, London Docklands at Stratford International and beyond. The link will make the town more assessable to the Midlands, North and Scotland through London St Pancras using neighbouring Euston and Kings Cross. Additionally this initiative will offer all day connections at Ebbsfleet for Paris, Brussels and Lille as well as the planned Deutsche Bahn service into Cologne and Frankfurt.
One of the other issues for the county is that Eastbourne one of the fastest growing town in the South East has maxed out on rail capacity into London due to the pressures on the Brighton Main Line. We have passengers standing for over an hour often in the peak hours. One solution was to reopen the Lewes to Uckfield route however this will not address the capacity issues at the northern end of the Brighton Main Line at Purley and East Croydon. The Javelin extension to Eastbourne is much needed to leverage and provide additional capacity across the network. Both Hastings and Bexhill will benefit from this as the Javelin will call at those towns. In the case of Bexhill the service will half journey times from London and with Hastings it will reduce journey times to 65 minutes from the current 93 minutes seen on the 1066 Charing Cross route. Eastbourne to East Central (Stratford London Docklands) and Central North London journey times will be reduced avoiding busy cross London Underground travelling.
It is clear that the fast London to Ashford rail link has attracted businesses into the Ashford area, good transport infrastructure is of fundamental importance in any towns forward thinking strategy. The upgraded rail link to high speed via Ashford can only assist Hastings in attracting new businesses into the town delivering economic recovery coupled with well paid jobs.
The rebuilding of the Willingdon Curve near Polegate can be explored should the proposed housing developments in the Polegate and the Hailsham Triangle areas be progressed, however this brings a host of complications with traffic profiling due to the Eastbourne rail hub but sure this is something for the long term future.
Fares have already increased above inflation on the Hastings route, the increased fares investment was spent on other areas of the network such as the fast London to Ashford link and beyond to Margate, Ramsgate, Dover, Folkestone and Canterbury. Our research shows that Hastings already has one of the most expensive fares in the South East per mile for rail travel, Brighton, Bexhill, Folkestone, Worthing and Littlehampton are cheaper. Based on population versus available train capacity Hastings along with Bexhill has the least, in short we want a rail service that matches what we in Hastings have already paid for.
So if your in St Leonards or Hastings why not join the St Leonards and Hastings Rail Improvement Programme or in Bexhill Join Bexhill Rail Action Group and not forgetting Eastbourne, Hampden Park, Polegate and Lewes the East Coastway Commuters Group - forming the East Sussex Rail Alliance ESRA. We are in regular contact with the DFT, Network Rail, The management board of Go Ahead Keolis Southern and South Eastern Trains, Secretary Of States + shadows Lord Adonis, Theresa Villiers and Norman Baker, Hastings, Eastbourne, Rother Councils as well as the four county MPs and PPCs to make this happen.
Recently, much investment has gone into Hastings with new World Class Office spaces, University Centre Hastings and there is much more to come, the issue is that people cant access the town as well as Ashford, Brighton, Redhill and Crawley and this is a determining variable when businesses choose a place to locate. Therefore Terry your absolutely right there is correlation between good transport links and a good business environment and this is now happening with the developing Hastings business quarter. We need businesses to feel comfortable that when they choose Hastings, they can employ local skilled people and apprentices, however also have easy access for business visitors as well as employ people from outside of the town should those skills not be available within at this time.
The extension of the High Speed Javelins to Eastbourne, Bexhill, Hastings and Rye will provide a boost to these areas and offer inbound and outbound commuter plus tourist opportunities from the Thames Gateway at Ebbsfleet, London Docklands at Stratford International and beyond. The link will make the town more assessable to the Midlands, North and Scotland through London St Pancras using neighbouring Euston and Kings Cross. Additionally this initiative will offer all day connections at Ebbsfleet for Paris, Brussels and Lille as well as the planned Deutsche Bahn service into Cologne and Frankfurt.
One of the other issues for the county is that Eastbourne one of the fastest growing town in the South East has maxed out on rail capacity into London due to the pressures on the Brighton Main Line. We have passengers standing for over an hour often in the peak hours. One solution was to reopen the Lewes to Uckfield route however this will not address the capacity issues at the northern end of the Brighton Main Line at Purley and East Croydon. The Javelin extension to Eastbourne is much needed to leverage and provide additional capacity across the network. Both Hastings and Bexhill will benefit from this as the Javelin will call at those towns. In the case of Bexhill the service will half journey times from London and with Hastings it will reduce journey times to 65 minutes from the current 93 minutes seen on the 1066 Charing Cross route. Eastbourne to East Central (Stratford London Docklands) and Central North London journey times will be reduced avoiding busy cross London Underground travelling.
It is clear that the fast London to Ashford rail link has attracted businesses into the Ashford area, good transport infrastructure is of fundamental importance in any towns forward thinking strategy. The upgraded rail link to high speed via Ashford can only assist Hastings in attracting new businesses into the town delivering economic recovery coupled with well paid jobs.
The rebuilding of the Willingdon Curve near Polegate can be explored should the proposed housing developments in the Polegate and the Hailsham Triangle areas be progressed, however this brings a host of complications with traffic profiling due to the Eastbourne rail hub but sure this is something for the long term future.
Fares have already increased above inflation on the Hastings route, the increased fares investment was spent on other areas of the network such as the fast London to Ashford link and beyond to Margate, Ramsgate, Dover, Folkestone and Canterbury. Our research shows that Hastings already has one of the most expensive fares in the South East per mile for rail travel, Brighton, Bexhill, Folkestone, Worthing and Littlehampton are cheaper. Based on population versus available train capacity Hastings along with Bexhill has the least, in short we want a rail service that matches what we in Hastings have already paid for.
So if your in St Leonards or Hastings why not join the St Leonards and Hastings Rail Improvement Programme or in Bexhill Join Bexhill Rail Action Group and not forgetting Eastbourne, Hampden Park, Polegate and Lewes the East Coastway Commuters Group - forming the East Sussex Rail Alliance ESRA. We are in regular contact with the DFT, Network Rail, The management board of Go Ahead Keolis Southern and South Eastern Trains, Secretary Of States + shadows Lord Adonis, Theresa Villiers and Norman Baker, Hastings, Eastbourne, Rother Councils as well as the four county MPs and PPCs to make this happen.
Re: High speed rail link
I would like to see the Hastings to Ashford line electrified, but it would have to be on the third rail system as overhead lines would create far too many problems. A scheme to do this was planned many years ago and I believe some land was cut back and cleared for the electrical equipment and sub-staions to be installed, even though the work was never carried out and this land is now overgrown. The line was originally double track throughout and most, if not all of the bridges remain suitable for conversion back to double track, although I don't know if they are suitable for the extra strain imposed by high speed operation. There are other problems: the line would have to be resignaled, giving high speed trains time to stop at the numerous level crossings. There are also several ungated crossings that would have to be altered. Another problem is that there are a number of public foot crossings and occupation crossings used by farmers to move agricultural machinary across the line. These are not compatable with high speed operation, but some provision would have to be made as they are rights of way. Footbridges are one thing, but the agricultual crossings would need to be bridged more substantially and the type of bridges required and the approaches to these would not come cheap. The line would also have to be refenced throughout as most of the fencing arrangements now in place are totally unsuitable for either electric or high speed operation. It might also be desirable to provide facilities (loops) for high speed trains to overtake stopping trains somewhere on the line. Appledore would seem the logical place, but this would probably involve the complete demolition and rebuild of the station.
It might also be an idea to look at the possibility of reopening of the New Romney branch to passenger traffic, although I doubt if this would justify electrification.
As I said, I'd like to see it all to happen, but don't underestimate the cost, it would be an extremely expensive project.
It might also be an idea to look at the possibility of reopening of the New Romney branch to passenger traffic, although I doubt if this would justify electrification.
As I said, I'd like to see it all to happen, but don't underestimate the cost, it would be an extremely expensive project.
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st_leonards_duffer
- Posts: 46
- Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:15 pm
Re: High speed rail link
I've had a look at the SHRIMP website and it seems to me that things are going to get worse, not better, as far as transport into St Leonards is concerned. On the one hand there will be a high speed line to Ashford where people will have to change trains to get into St Pancras and then change on to the tube to get into work. So really it is no better as far as commuting into London goes and is probably worse. On the other hand there will be no direct Cannon Street service: most people who commute to London work in the City.
Am I right to think this will all be very harmful to the town in the medium to long term? Can somebody please tell me that I am wrong?
Am I right to think this will all be very harmful to the town in the medium to long term? Can somebody please tell me that I am wrong?
Re: High speed rail link
It really is an utterly ridiculous situation that people have to spend over three hours a day and travel 60 odd miles to work in the first place, especially as many of them will spend their whole day sitting in front of a computer or answering the telephone, something they could just as easily do locally if not at home for a drastically reduced wage (no travelling allowances), saving expensive office space in the capital and improving their overall quality of life. This idea of turning Hastings into a dormitary town clearly isn't in local people's interest.
I hope I'm wrong, but I suspect Hastings will be sidelined as far as road or rail transport is concerned. Improvements to the A259 and A21 are probably much more affordable in the short term and would be more likely to bring industry here.
To hell with what the city wants or what holidaymakers want, what about addressing what local people want? We need LOCAL jobs and LOCAL industries operating all year round, not Summer jobs, art galleries and pretty country walks.
I hope I'm wrong, but I suspect Hastings will be sidelined as far as road or rail transport is concerned. Improvements to the A259 and A21 are probably much more affordable in the short term and would be more likely to bring industry here.
To hell with what the city wants or what holidaymakers want, what about addressing what local people want? We need LOCAL jobs and LOCAL industries operating all year round, not Summer jobs, art galleries and pretty country walks.
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