Carlisle Pub (Pelham Arms), Denmark Arms and Public Shelter

[david_russell]

[Attachment: Carlisle_2.TIF (342.92kb)]

[Terry]

Thank you David. Does anybody know if Catt's Restaurant eventually became Lewcock's Restaurant which was bombed in WW2?

It's probably just a coincidence, but somwhere in the National Archives it says that when Richard Chandler purchased the land to build the Pelham Arms, the land is described as adjoining property already owned by him and rented to a Stephen (or Steven) Catt.

I've seen the Bovril sign on carlilse Villas in several photos taken from a distance, but this is the first close up and the first time I've been able to see any mention of the Carlisle Hotel on the sign.

[Terry]

Interestingly I found this picture taken from an old stereogram (I think that's what they were called) of Carlisle Villas from roughly the same spot looking East. There seem to be some curious anomalies between the two photos. Unfortunately there is no date, although I suspect this picture is of an earlier period. I have a building date of 1822 for Carlisle Villas, but I wasn't aware that they were ever altered so substantially.

[img://www.hastingsforum.co.uk/forums/sf_attachments/Carlisle_villas.jpg]

[Terry]

Now I feel silly! Carlisle Villas are on the EXTREME right of David's picture. The picture above was taken furthur to the East.

[david_russell]

The restaurant in the 'Bovril' picture was called Gatti's not Catts. Although the name Stephen Catt rings a vague bell with me ?

Lewcocks was first licensed in 1934 - one of few new licenses at the time. It was strongly opposed by eight nearby pubs including the Havelock and the Carlisle.

Lewcocks and the Denmark Arms both existed at the same time in the 1930s. Lewcocks was on the ground floor of one of the eleven houses ? shown in the pictures above - but which one ? And where is the Denmark in these pictures ?

[Terry]

The Denmark Arms was at the opposite end of Pelham Street to the Carlisle at No.33 (marked with a red dot on the map), so it wouldn't appear on any of these photos. It seems anyone taking photographs in this area were hypnotised by the Queens Hotel and the Albert Memorial. As I said, the only photo I've ever seen of it is at the webpage I mentioned. I dare say someone somewhere's sitting on a photo of it thinking it's of no interest to anyone. Perhaps they'll take a look on here one day.

[img://www.hastingsforum.co.uk/forums/sf_attachments/Map_1938d.JPG]

[Terry]

Re-reading through this thread, I've mentioned Stephen Catt before.

You're not confusing the Denmark Arms with Denmark House are you? There was a lodging house in Denmark Place called Denmark House in the 1860s, run by a guy called James Goldsmith. This was roughly at the same time that G Goldsmith was landlord of the Denmark Arms, but the Denmark Arms and Denmark House were almost certainly completely different buildings. The two Goldsmiths may have been related, but I have no evidence to suggest this other than their name, so it may just be a coincidence. I've also mentioned before that a G Goldsmith was landlord of the Wellington in 1859, but once again although it seems likely, I've nothing to suggest it was the same guy that ran the Denmark Arms.

I've no idea which building in Denmark Place Denmark House was, but some of those buildings seem to have changed their name every so often, I assume this was down to a change of ownership.

Oh yes, I should point out that the above map is a photograph of the 1938 map available in Hastings Library and the photo of the bombed Denmark arms can be found at

http://www.dengates.com/

by clicking on the "Hastings at War Photographs" link on the left of the page (it won't let me put a direct link to the pictures), but I suggest taking the accompanying story with a pinch of salt as they claim the Denmark Arms was destroyed in a raid by 10 Focke-wulf FW-190s carrying 25 bombs. The FW-190 was a small fighter aircraft that could probably carry a couple of bombs at the expense of range, but I doubt if 10 such aircraft could carry 25 bombs.

[david_russell]

Thanks Terry, Im aware of the Dengate photo. But Nathan Goodwin says Denmark Arms, Denmark Place not Pelham Street.

[Terry]

Well it's listed at 33 Pelham Street at the National Archives and at Dead Pubs and the photo bears this out. The buildings on the left of the photo still exist, I think there's a building society (the Halifax?) there today. The round thing in the photo looks like the skylight from the old underground toilets in Harold Place. I can only suggest that Mr. Gooidwin may have confused Denmark House with the pub or possibly with Lewcocks due to both establishments being destroyed by bombs. I'm certain that photo is the building I marked on the map. If you look at the map in the library, rather than my rather blurred photo of it, that building is clearly marked PH and as you say in your book, the Prince of Wales in Pelham Street closed after WW1 and the other pub candidates were also gone by then weren't they? Surely it can only be the Denmark Arms.

[david_russell]

Apologies, you are correct Terry. I think Denmark Place was used to park boats at one time and there are photographs of boats there. Maybe there's a boat picture with the Denmark in the background ?