Independence Day

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Richard
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Independence Day

Postby Richard » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:14 pm

Britain does not want to be a colony of Europe ruled by the Brussels dictatorship.
Teresa May was a remainer and is now seeking to pacify the power-base in Brussels.
We don't want to be run from Brussels like a province of Rome with a compliant Commander.
Cameron tried and failed, with his 'begging bowl' of requests to be accepted on immigration controls, trade tariffs etcetera.
Nobody has stood up to the EU yet in a meaningful way.
Time for a new leader.
The heat is now on - in more ways than one!

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seahermit
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Re: Independence Day

Postby seahermit » Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:24 am

Brussels is not a dictatorship - I suppose you could call it a sort of oligarchy or maybe near to something totalitarian, intent eventually on control of all facets of European life, trade, finance, farming practices, politics etc. etc.

Just by voting "No", Britain has definitely stood up to Brussels for the time being. The big question of course is whether the UK will go right through with it and bring about a real separation from the EU instead of some kind of fudge - although it was clear from the start that, like it or not, we cannot just sever all ties instantly and walk out of the door like a disgruntled partner in a bad marriage. The economic damage and repercussions of such an exit would be enormous and there have to be compromises and agreements to slowly disentangle all the trading links and a myriad other connections tying us to the European leviathan.

I do not even pretend to understand all the complexities and implications of the turmoil which is taking place in Westminster at present - the pronouncements and dire warnings from different factions, passionately expressed and with a great deal of exaggeration and reckless disregard for factual evidence, makes it very difficult to foresee whether the "deal" which is slowly being unwrapped before the eyes of the British public will really benefit the UK and achieve the desired freedom, independence and absence of influence from the European bloc. To be quite honest, I don't think economists, bankers or politicians know either, nor can predict how things will work out in the long run. All the doom and gloom predicted for the UK before the Referendum was a complete nonsense - despite the resounding vote to exit the EU, the UK's economy has in many ways improved, many foreigners are still anxious to work and study here and foreign companies have absolutely not left the country in droves. The UK is still a strategic base for transport, trade and communications across the Atlantic and in the easterly direction, geography will ensure that that remains the case for some time ahead.

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Richard
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Re: Independence Day

Postby Richard » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:48 pm

Yes! And in all fairness not much more than 50% of our people who voted were in favour of Brexit and a soft Brexit may well be the best answer.
Business would settle for that and the rest of the EU would find a compromise to accomodate Teresa may's solution as laid on the table at Chequers' recently.
Realistically we have been involved with the EU for too long to just walk away and begin again as some are demanding for a 'hard Brexit'.
We are embroiled and even 'married' to the EU without a 'pre-nuptial' agreement on the roadmap ahead and have to hold out our begging bowl to some extent and hope that the EU will be benevolent?
However Teresa May almost lost her position as leader when she went to the country for more votes and is weak and the rest of the EU know this and may well influence her chances of surviving for longer than would otherwise be the case.

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seahermit
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Re: Independence Day

Postby seahermit » Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:04 pm

Yes, that's a good analogy. Indeed we got embroiled in the EU without any kind of "pre-nuptial agreement" in case of a sudden, very unexpected vote by the electorate to sever ties and get out.

I have a sneaking feeling that Theresa May could prove to be more durable and resilient than many of her opponents reckon on. Despite coming close to losing her postion and many forecasts of her imminent demise, she has remained pretty calm, managed to hold on and to deliver a Brexit package which is, maybe, acceptable to the majority of her cabinet (what's left of them!). It all depends of course on the eventual outcome - if she can pull it off, her opponents will be confounded and she will be seen as a much stronger leader. If it it doesn't work out, she will disappear like others before her and be forgotten.

Angela Merkel is a case in point. She has been in a precarious position for some years negotiating with the various political factions but has somehow kept calm and held on and commands a good deal of respect atleast abroad.

cbe
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Re: Independence Day

Postby cbe » Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:36 pm

I can breathe a sigh of relief. From your first post Richard I was thinking that for the first time you and I were in agreement about something, but no, normal service has been resumed.
There is no such thing as Hard and Soft Brexit - they were just part of Remainers' attempts at preventing Brexit.
You are IN or you are OUT. Pregnant or not pregnant is the analogy most used.
As regards 'suddenly' leaving, that was never on the cards anyway. There was always the 2 years after article 50 was 'lodged'. Cameron, among his other lies, said that if there was a Leave vote he would lodge article 50 the following day. He obviously never intended losing the vote and so that comment was merely another frightener for the ignorant masses - yes people just like me. It didn't work.
We wasted many, many months before triggering article 50 - then the 2 years has to run and even then we talk of transition periods. The problem has been that the Globalists do not intend us to leave the EU. They and their lickspittles in the media harp on constantly about 'hard' Brexit and 'Cliff-edge' etc etc Leavers didn't buy their fear-mongering the first time around and will not buy it now. Theresa May was a Remainer and was put into place to do exactly what she is trying to do - prevent Brexit. It will not work - she is holed below the waterline and it is a matter of time before she leaves or is pushed. The Globalists will try again to put in a Remainer but that too will never get them their desired result. A very dangerous game is afoot. If you show the electorate that their vote does not matter then what course of action do you leave them?

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seahermit
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Re: Independence Day

Postby seahermit » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:29 am

Bit of a gloomy outlook painted and a somewhat cynical one! But maybe you will be proved right .. There has certainly been a continuous and devious rearguard action fought by the Remain faction ever since the referendum, but Theresa May achieving office because of attempts by others to put a Remainer "stooge" in place and thus eventually derail the whole Brexit process ..? Who knows what is really going on? Politics these days has all the tools of technology and sophisticated misinformation to obscure truth from the population, so I am prepared to find out eventually that I have been naive.

Meanwhile, the proof will be in what actually happens later. If May is seen as an undercover Remainer and is pushed out by the "hardline" Brexit faction, that will be a recipe for greater turmoil and uncertainty. The sharp divisions across the country are reflected by similar divisions amongst senior Tories and any kind of "civil war" within the Tory party will be damaging for absolutely everybody.

I think I need a glass of something strong before hitting the hay tonight!

cbe
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Re: Independence Day

Postby cbe » Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:00 pm

Gloomy and cynical moi?

As regards possible turmoil in the Conservative party - far too late for that worry. The turmoil is here. Theresa May has to go and the democratic result of the referendum has to be put into action - complete and total exit from the EU and its organizations. Anything less and as I have said previously people will be wondering what else they can do if politicians ignore their will. This Brexitless Brexit will also affect the Labour party too. Don't forget that 17.4 million people voted Leave. The Conservative party tend to get 11 - 12 million votes in a General election ergo at least 5 -6 million people, who do not vote for the Conservatives, also wanted Brexit. Interesting times ahead and I believe and fervently hope that there will be some changes to UK politics and that a different sort of person will put their name forward to become an MP.

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Richard
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Re: Independence Day

Postby Richard » Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:21 pm

The remain/leave vote did not spell out exactly whether customs union or single market would be totally severed, you might say it does by implication but ambiguity exists.
Cleary Theresa May is trying to create a fudge with this ambiguity and the rest of the EU will sweeten the fudge.
Unless hard line Tories can stage a revolt (on what grounds?) then Theresa may get a way with it.
:o

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seahermit
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Re: Independence Day

Postby seahermit » Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:48 pm

The package offered by Theresa May is not "Brexitless" - at first appraisal it seemed to me that several key bones of contention were being dealt with, the ability of the European Court to over-ride UK law, restrictions on our freedom to negotiate trade deals outside the EU, the "freedom of movement" arrangement which provided businesses with plenty of cheap labour but has been a great source of resentment to everyone else, as well as straining all the health, housing and other services.

But certainly the proposals as they have so far been reported in the media are very hazy and lacking in detail, particularly in the area of trade and it is very difficult to see how genuinely we will be disentangling ourselves from the complicated rules and procedures imposed on us by the EU. It is all very much open to interpretation and clearly Boris, David Davis and others see it as a fudge and a watered down compromise instead of a clearcut separation.

What is good is that there is some real politics atlast and proper debate, people getting passionate and angry instead of apathetically giving in to all the usual bland platitudes from politicians! Just hope something positive and definite comes out of it, the fear is that the country will be weakened by ongoing strife and unresolvable differences.

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seahermit
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Re: Independence Day

Postby seahermit » Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:58 pm

Richard's post came in just before mine was up there - he puts it more succinctly than I did. It does indeed all come over as a fudge at the moment with a great deal of ambiguity. It is not at all clear whether we will be totally free of the EU single market, I think there will be bitter contention over this for some time to come.


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