Independence Day

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cbe
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Re: Independence Day

Postby cbe » Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:44 pm

Richard - the referendum asked (and I paraphrase) do you want to Remain in the Eu
or do you want to Leave the EU.
The bit about the plebs not understanding what they were voting for and not really wanting to be out of the customs union etc etc is just more obfuscation by the Remainers.

Seahermit - re the ability to do deals with other countries (Something that any country should take for granted by the way) is not as nice as you say. IF (I say if because Mrs May will be gone soon and this will never get approval) we are abiding by all the rules and regulations of the EU then THAT alone will preclude deals with countries who want different R & Rs.
You have only to look back at how several other countries have voted against EU agreements and having voted against have been forced by their own 5th columnists and an intransigent EU to vote again (until they produced the right answer) to realise that they will do ANYTHING to prevent any watering down of The Dream.

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Richard
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Re: Independence Day

Postby Richard » Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:53 pm

The problem is that the 'Little Britain' voters / plebs motivated by Farage were the typical, ordinary, man-in-the-street left-wingers of Labour, whereas the businesses (traditionally supported by the Tories) desperately wanted to remain in the EU where they could continue doing business 'sans barriers'.
There was a lot of rhetoric about escaping from the cosy 'dungheap' of the EU and its rules and regulations that were despised without a thought about what to replace them with.
The old maxim holds true - don't discard something before / until you have found a replacement.
And we suffer greatly if we ignore this advice!

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seahermit
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Re: Independence Day

Postby seahermit » Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:15 am

I agree with that, the answer demanded in the referendum was a straight yes or no. Before then, there was plenty of time for the electorate to read the papers, follow all the arguments in the media and absorb what a Brexit would actually mean and its repercussions. It is out of order for Remainers to claim after the event that "this is not really the kind of Brexit people thought it would be" and the misguided punters didn't fully understand what they were voting for. That attitude also shows a disdain for ordinary people's intelligence!

Re: continuing to follow EU trading rules and regulations, May has suggested that EU practices will not automatically be incorporated into UK law but will be subject to scrutiny and approval by the UK parliament. But again there is little specific information, it's all very vague and dangerously open to reinterpretation/watering down at a later stage. Depends on how honest and
sincere you think May is being!

To Richard I would say that business was actually rather divided - large international concerns were staunchly in favour of no change for purely financial reasons. But many middling and small businesses were bitterly resentful about the extra stresses put upon them by the multitudinous and petty EU rules regarding taking on non-UK employees, the size and presentation of goods being sold etc. etc. - even down to the jars of jam put out on a table in a country lane by the farmer's wife!

For me one of the major factors was the sheer corruption and inefficiency which kept surfacing over the years. If such huge sums were being wasted on unnecessary schemes (remember the butter mountains, the surplus milk being poured down drains and heavily subsidising French farmers in case they might clog the Champs Elysee with their tractors again?), then all our taxes were in part paying for those extravagances of bad overall planning and lack of control over the many who were doing indecently well out of the EU.

cbe
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Re: Independence Day

Postby cbe » Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:29 am

Richard - it is doubtless true that many Labour voters took notice of Nigel Farage (among others) who were better able to express the iniquities of this country's EU membership better than they themselves were. On the other hand I know very, very many Conservatives (real Conservatives not the CINOs in the House of Commons) who also took delight that someone, anyone, was giving voice to their concerns.
As regards having a plan in mind after leaving well that was surely the job of that towering former Prime Minister David Cameron. He offered the referendum and was so convinced that with all the powers at his disposal he could not probably lose that he didn't do any planning at all. A dereliction of duty at the very least.
We can trade with other countries in the world, the vast majority of which are NOT in the EU. At worst we trade on WTO rules and if we had any gumption among our leadership, deals would already be in the making - though the EU bans that !!!!

cbe
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Re: Independence Day

Postby cbe » Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:37 am

Hi Seahermit - on the matter of our Parliament being able to put certain rules and regulations to scrutiny, that is mere flim-flam. Everything about this white paper is saying we are not really leaving the EU. We will be associate members until such time we can bend a referendum result sufficiently to rejoin. By the way I congratulate you on managing to get May and Sincere into the same sentence - I have never seen that before.
Big businesses undoubtedly would like things to move along as smoothly as possible without too much change though they could always get off their backside and trade with the rest of the world. They also want unlimited immigration as this gives a constant supply of labour. By definition this depresses wages and therefore one wonders (apart from the 'grants' they get from the EU) why Trade Unions are, at this time anyway, in favour of EU membership. A cynic might say that the Unions have been losing their hold over their members for some time and a whole new batch of people coming into the country and in the main into low-paid jobs would be excellent recruiting ground for them. One last thing - the vast majority of businesses in this country do NOT 'do business' with the EU but every single one of them is entangled by their rules and regulations. Good morning.

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Richard
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Re: Independence Day

Postby Richard » Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:59 am

After all that it looks like Trump will say yes or no to Theresa's latest plans.
If he refuses her plans, and it looks like he will already, then huge U.S. trade deals (as once promised) will not be forthcoming.
Funny how the world revolves and I bet Putin had an influence somewhere along the line to encourage Brexit and destabilize an increasingly fragile 'Europe'.
:shock:

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seahermit
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Re: Independence Day

Postby seahermit » Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:47 pm

I can't see how Trump's negotiations with May have more than a marginal relevance to the current argument about the Brexit deal. And if Putin had a hand in influencing the refendum result (how on earth would he achieve that?), Richard is the only person in the UK who thinks there might be some evidence for that!

I didn't of course suggest that May IS sincere, I just said that it depends on how you choose to view her! I agree that the provisos that "EU regs will be subject to parliamentary scrutiny etc." may well be of dubious value and are certainly completely open to interpretation. It all depends how things are hammered out in practice over the next few months.

If May does indeed lead the UK itowards a very watered-down and illusory Brexit, I think (and sincerely hope) that there will be a very angry backlash from those who wanted a complete break. I haven't considered doing any rioting in the streets before in my life, but there's always a time for everything!

cbe
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Re: Independence Day

Postby cbe » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:11 pm

Seahermit - pitchforks at the ready - we will have to meet for some basic training.
Richard - have you fallen for the Democrats 'It was putin wot dun it' for everything
they don't like?

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Richard
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Re: Independence Day

Postby Richard » Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:01 pm

I am amazed to see so many people with enough time on their hands to parade around London on a week day complaining about Trump, plus Corbyn rallying his troops in Trafalgar Square.
Just how many stupid people there are is beyond belief...
A complete waste of time and energy and the London Mayor should know that we need to do business with the U.S. and allowing a 'blimp' to be hoisted to mock the man is not exactly helpful.
No it wasn't Putin 'wot dunnit' re- Brexit but it is known that Russian interference on the world stage is rife and most Russians will support Putin with their lives, despite his agents liberally chucking poison around in the UK, on more than one or two occasions.
Russian agents interfered in the U.S. election process and maybe they influenced Brexit too.
Who knows?

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seahermit
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Re: Independence Day

Postby seahermit » Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:31 am

If protesting about Trump is stupid, then I am very stupid in exercising my right to also dissent from the official attitude of polite tolerance towards Trump. I find him repellant, a showman and a show-off, bullying, petulant and childish in his impulsive reactions to any criticism. Yes, we need to continue with a sensible business and political relationship with the US, but Trump is merely a transient politician, does not represent much of the wiser, more informed body of opinion in the US. I found the blimp very amusing and an apt commentary on the superficiality and hollowness which Trump embodies.

The demos in the UK will be reported back in the US and, despite the frivolous aspect, will be noted with dismay by those who would prefer a president capable of commanding respect abroad.

Putin influencing Brexit? I think there may be some truth in this - a flying saucer was reported, seen descending over Middle Wallop polling stations and kidnapping people before they could cast their pro-Brexit votes ..


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