Independence Day

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cbe
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Re: Independence Day

Postby cbe » Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:11 am

Richard - Regarding yesterday's 'protests' about the presence of DJT in the UK, the fact that it was joined by Mr Corbyn is proof-positive that the man knows he will never be the PM of this country. He is forever stuck in a time-warp of student politics and I think he is very happy in that place. No more needs saying about the man.
Sadiq Khan 'allowing the blimp' to be flown is interesting. The blimp was clearly intended as an insult to a sitting President of the US and yet this same Mayor bans adverts featuring scantily-clad ladies being shown on on the Tube and buses as offensive. Methinks he needs to go back on to the Consistency Course as he must have missed some of the lessons. I would think that the denizens of the fair city of London would much rather the Mayor did something about the epidemic of murders, stabbings and acid attacks they have to live with.
Now back to Putin, isn't it great to have a bogeyman to blame everything on? I would not be surprised if Russia did 'interfere' around the World. All countries do it. You have surely not forgotten a few years back when Barack Hussein Obama had to extricate himself from the 'USA Hacking Angela Merkel's Private Telephone Calls' thing came to light. I am sure that you do not suffer from selective memory loss. Now the poison. We see a large powerful country who, we are told, is the enemy of the West. They have massive resources and can strike anyone, anywhere. Unfortunately this 'poison' did not kill Mr Skripal, it did not kill his daughter, it did not kill the policeman who spent time in hospital and up to this moment it has not killed the latest gentleman concerned. A strange poison indeed. Yes, a lady has just died, but I think you will agree, without us going into too much detail, that her health was perhaps not the best and therefore she was far more susceptible to anything introduced into her system than you or I might have been. A terrible thing to happen but do not let that cloud the issue of 'Russian poisoning'. Are we to believe that Russia, wanting to poison one of their former agents, who had become a double agent, couldn't find a poison that worked? A ridiculous suggestion I think that you will agree? Now call me Mr Cynical (again) but one of these 'events' seems to happen when other things are taking too much attention. I would suggest to you that these 'poisoning' events are the equivalent of 'Look, there's a squirrel'. The fact that these events also happened just a few miles from Porton Down should not go unmentioned.
Enough !

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seahermit
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Re: Independence Day

Postby seahermit » Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:32 am

Beautiful image coming up - our great and respected leaders deciding the future direction of the world. Gawd help us!
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cbe
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Re: Independence Day

Postby cbe » Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:31 pm

and then of course there is this one
YUP.JPG



(I hope I've added this correctly)

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seahermit
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Re: Independence Day

Postby seahermit » Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:18 pm

I love that! Difficult to add anything else. But I can just see Colombo making mincemeat of current UK leadership .. and probably Trump's mentality too.

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Richard
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Re: Independence Day

Postby Richard » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:35 pm

cbe, If you doubt Russia/Putin was behind the poison attack involving 'Novichok', for whatever reason, you seem to be on the side of the Russians, citing the proximity to Porton Down as more evidence.
The UK 'intelligence' in these matters is vast, from many historic poisonings on our streets by Russian agents and recent intercepted messages emanating from Russian 'air-space' we can be fairly certain that it was not a mere diversionary tactic by the UK secret services.
Vil Mirzayanov, a Russian chemist who helped develop the poison, told Reuters last month that only Russia could have carried out the attack.
Another Cold-War-era scientist, Professor Leonid Rink, told Russia’s RIA news agency the attack did not look like Moscow’s work because the Skripals had not died immediately.

The only reason the double agent and his daughter did not die immediately was because they were discovered in a public place and were rushed to a hospital in time which knew how to put them into a coma.
Dean Haydon, Britain’s’ senior national coordinator for counter-terrorism policing, said on March 28 a nerve toxin had been left on the front door of the Skripals’ home in England
The Russian (or ?? secret service of the UK??) intention was to have Skripal collapse in his home and remain undiscovered until he had died.
The lady who subsequently died was (first and foremost) a human being - what on earth has her social condition / lifestyle got to do with it?
Last edited by Richard on Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cbe
Posts: 144
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Re: Independence Day

Postby cbe » Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:17 pm

Sorry Richard JUST seen your post and cannot reply at the moment AND I am going away for a couple of days. Rest assured a reply to this nonsense is coming. Later this week.

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seahermit
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Re: Independence Day

Postby seahermit » Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:37 am

I think most people would feel that there is no argument here. Nobody has said that the Russians DID initiate the Novichok attack - the official position is that there is a high probability of that being the case in the face of circumstantial evidence - which nevertheless appears to be overwhelming. Apart from the fact that, instead of any kind of help and co-operation with the UK authorities, Russia has merely put out a barrage of lies, cynicism and preposterous insinuations about deliberate ploys by the UK government!

The poison was developed in the 1970's/80's in USSR laboratories. Russia has a long history of underhand and subversive acts of this kind. In the last few years, I think it's now about 14 emigre Russian policians, ex-spies, businessmen etc. who have been murdered or died in mysterious circumstances in the West.. The UK has a lot of problems but thank God atleast we live in a relatvely free and tolerant society.

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Richard
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Re: Independence Day

Postby Richard » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:41 pm

“There is no alternative conclusion other than that the Russian state was culpable for the attempted murder of Sergei Skripal and his daughter - and for threatening the lives of other British citizens.”
This was the message put out by T. May in March, it diplomatically included the possibility that Russia may have 'lost control of the poison' instead of bluntly stating that Russia did initiate the attack directly.
Not only does Russia have a long history of underhand and subversive acts of this kind but thuggish louts and gangsters have ruled the more lucrative businesses since the fall of the Soviet Union, with Putin cracking down occasionally, especially if his authority is threatened.

cbe
Posts: 144
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Re: Independence Day

Postby cbe » Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:34 pm

Richard re your post of the 15th you said and again I paraphrase, that if I doubted that Russia/Putin were behind the 'poison attack' for whatever reason, then I must be of the side of Russia. Did you really intend that line to come out as it did? If you did then I can only imagine that as you pressed the submit button you were sticking your tongue out and stamping your foot. It was infantile in the extreme.
You have then quoted 2 Russians. The first one said it could ONLY have been the work of Russia?
Why???? What you did not point out was that in 1992 he was tried for treason in Russia. The trial collapsed but thereafter he was kept under house arrest until he was allowed to leave for the US in 1995. I mention this only as it is necessary to look into people's possible motivations when giving expert evidence. You also did not point out that this same man, talking of Novichok, said 'it's torture' and 'It's absolutely incurable'. - Apparently he was wrong about incurable? By 'incurable' he is saying if affected by it...you die. The second man you quote said 'It did not look like the work of Russia since Skripal did not die'. That's right only one person affected by these Russian poison attacks has died so not too deadly then. I will return to this point at the end of this post.
Your two examples cancel each other out I suppose?
I will just insert one other thing here.
You will know that Skripal had been arrested and sentenced to 13 years in jail in Russia for spying/treason. He served just 4 years of that before being involved in a spy-swap and moving to the UK in 2010. He has lived in the UK from 2010 until now. So the Russians wanted him dead? Why not do it during his imprisonment years? Why not do it twixt 2010 and March of this year? Why not DO IT in March of this year ..... he is alive.
As you say On March 28th of this year the authorities decided they had finally discovered where the nerve toxin had been administered. The Skripal's front door. On the more-than-3 weeks since that 'attack' I feel sorry for the poor policemen who were stationed at that front door . The numerous investigators who had passed through that door during their investigations, must also have been very lucky.
Now my final point deals with your final point in your post of the 15th. I find it absolutely appalling that you infer that I was not concerned about the lady who DID die. I have read your posts on this forum for quite a long time and so I am aware that you are not stupid man so why could you not see that my post mentioning the death (a terrible thing to happen..her health was such etc and I did not elaborate about that )but that in no way could cloud the issue of 'Russian poisoning' I am clearly not saying the woman's death was of no importance ( first and foremost a human being) merely pointing out that this 'deadly (incurable) poison was not' deadly to the other 4 people affected. Witness YOUR examples and what they said about this deadly posion.
Sorry Geoff for length of this.

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seahermit
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Re: Independence Day

Postby seahermit » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:05 pm

cbe, I am afraid I have to say that I find it a bit difficult to unravel what point you are basically making in your post! Except that you seem to be considerably sceptical (or naive?) about Russian involvement in the Novichok poisoning.

The evidence pointing to that involvement comes from a variety of sources stretching back years. The fact that some victims involved in attempted (or successful) overseas assassinations may have been ex-spies, defectors, political enemies of Putin (or "traitors" depending on your point of view) and therefore maybe of questionable veracity hardly alters the basic fact that such murders have been going on and that few organisations/individuals would have an interest in settling scores in that fashion except for representatives of the ruthless Russian regime currently in power.

Why Skripal was not targeted at an earlier date is hardly relevant to the central issue, except to say that international politics are complicated, memories are long but maybe the time and circumstances were not right etc. etc. .. it is not really relevant.

The reason that Skripal did not in fact die is probably because of sheer luck combined with the fact that the perpetrators of the attack were not completely efficient - let's hope they don't perfect their techniques in the future ..


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