Independence Day

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Richard
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Re: Independence Day

Postby Richard » Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:02 pm

The problem with the agreement on open borders is that our welcoming hospitality means that we are a magnet for all the immigrants who can get into the EU countries, 'by hook or by crook' and thence to make a beeline for the UK.
This is clearly unsustainable. and we cannot just admit and welcome everyone.
The EU country residents could also come in and look for work - we are a small country!

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Richard
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Re: Independence Day

Postby Richard » Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:41 pm

Beyond the understandable issues over immigration, it is clear that T. May now leads a weakened government, left attempting to placate a bunch of dissafected back-bench Conservative M.P.'s, such as the 'Eurosceptic' William (Bill) Cash, who want to turn the screw on a federalist-minded EU, led by Germany and France.
We fought two World Wars against German Federalism and the Eurosceptics seem to fear another domination along those lines. Old habits and consequent reactions die hard!

But can we just pull the plug on relations with the EU? Surely not, what will then happen to our farmers exporting goods and our Industry, already integrated and unable to just walk away without serious consequences?
We are not in a happy place now and it looks like a slow roller-coaster car-crash is mesmerising us with its impending conclusion.
We may be lucky and able to cope, when it happens, but we are where we are entirely because of the power of the disgruntled Eurosceptics in the Tory Party.

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seahermit
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Re: Independence Day

Postby seahermit » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:27 pm

So, it's happened, the totally inevitable defeat on the Brexit deal and I have lost understanding of Theresa May. It was obvious what would happen, so why has she been so dogged and unmoving about her "deal" and what was she hoping to achieve?

I still cannot predict how this will turn out eventually - other than a prolonged period of chaos. If Brexit doesn't happen, I for one will be very angry but it's hard to see how it will eventually happen except maybe almost by accident!

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Richard
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Re: Independence Day

Postby Richard » Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:24 am

Yes! Indeed, May was hell-bent on achieving her style of Brexit alone, stating it was the Brexit people had voted for, despite all indications to the contrary, culminating in last night's vote.
In all reality though, any type of Brexit was never going to be a simple clear-cut choice of leave or remain, as offered by the referendum, or was it?
Was it indeed a false referendum? Or, at least, a misleading one, when a choice of leaving completely and severing all ties is now seen to be tantamount to a disorderly Brexit, which the Government (led by the Speaker, Bercow) says he will oppose, over the head of Parliament, if necessary.
If Parliament cannot decide on a Brexit which suits a majority, it has failed once or at least rejected May's proposals, then she will have to either go back and see what they will then support or fall on her sword.

As the EU has stated, tell us what it is you want and that seems to what Parliament will support but if that remains unclear, then the Government may step in.
A fine mess by all accounts, now being muddied further by Corbyn who also seems unclear on how to deal with Brexit, beyond short-term opportunism to wrest control, as a first priority.

In conclusion, the simple (or simplistic) referendum choice had ramifications, well beyond a simple leave or remain, where now, both Bercow and Labour will oppose a hard (disorderly) Brexit, which sort of seems to be what the people voted for in the first place.
T. May also tried to avoid a hard Brexit with her deal but that was voted out.
So, what do we mean by Brexit if we can't achieve it by any means?
All a bit 'Alice in Wonderland' I know, but there you have it...

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seahermit
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Re: Independence Day

Postby seahermit » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:52 am

The BBC news website has an item headed: "Brexit. A really simple guide".

The actual post however is yards long .. says it all I think! Everyone wants something different to emerge from all the mess. May the best person/faction/political grouping of aggressive agitators win ..

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Richard
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Re: Independence Day

Postby Richard » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:37 am

If nothing else works, the default position will be for the UK to leave the EU, without a deal, on March 29th.

northants1066
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Re: Independence Day

Postby northants1066 » Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:47 pm

A solution to the "backstop". Ireland leave the EU!!

About the only MP I can find who defied his party and voted with his constituents was Stephen LLoyd at Eastbourne.

If we extend Article 50 will that mean the UK can participate in this years European Parliament Elections? If so we need Nigel Farage to start a new party free from the stigma of UKIP.

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Richard
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Re: Independence Day

Postby Richard » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:35 pm

And if Scotland were to separate from the rest of us, as N. Sturgeon wishes, would a hard border then have to be built for customs purposes? :)

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ColinL
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Re: Independence Day

Postby ColinL » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:46 pm

Mr Farage is the stigma of UKIP.
Perhaps not as pure as the current leader but he is the one who said he feels 'uncomfortable' (?) on his train from London to Kent hearing foreign voices, or living next to some Romanians. I expect that he might find an exception to Romanian oligarchs out for a good commodity market deal. Or his supposed 75 mill Turkish people coming to live in the UK. He lai the ground for where they are now.

Also remember as soon as the Referendum was over he is reported as saying that he would no longer have to associate with 'low grade' people

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Richard
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Re: Independence Day

Postby Richard » Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:50 am

Farage was a mischief-maker, no doubt about it, saying what some wanted to hear.
It will be interesting to see what T. May can next come up with, that commands sufficient support, so avoiding the current impasse.
Let's hope the following does not still hold true:

There are only four things certain since Social Progress began.
That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire.


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