Citizenship

If it's not Hastings related post it here! Politics, religion, whatever you like!
User avatar
ColinL
Posts: 126
Joined: Sat May 21, 2016 3:45 pm

Re: Citizenship

Postby ColinL » Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:58 pm

Managed to find the report

https://www.pressgazette.co.uk/sun-and- ... -cenotaph/

If you block out the veteran on the left it can look as if Mr Corbyn is dancing

User avatar
seahermit
Posts: 389
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Citizenship

Postby seahermit » Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:22 am

I didn't say I completely trusted the various news media! Anyone who did that would be a fool of course and the lower end newspapers have a very poor record for posting gossip without thoroughly checking sources and authenticity. But we have to make the best of what we get - read decent newspapers, follow the BBC and then use our common sense in judging what seems reliable and trustworthy.

In any family, children do not tell their parents everything and vice-versa - I certainly didn't! But in a "normal" family, there is usually some measure of trust and an understanding of what is wrong and out-of-order. But we are talking about extreme circumstances - I find it incredible that the parents did not talk with their daughters enough or spend time with them to realise they were thinking along extremist religious lines and planning to go abroad. There must surely have been some kind of signs - were the parents really so preoccupied with their own lives, so disconnected? Very bad, should never have happened.

User avatar
Richard
Posts: 2442
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:36 pm

Re: Citizenship

Postby Richard » Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:38 am

I blame the parents primarily.
Having said that I notice that, especially these days, there is a sort of breakdown in the family where kids are allowed to go to their rooms with meals and tap away on their internet contraptions instead of eating round the family table where views can be discussed and reasoned.
Even so I would expect the parents to be more in touch with the thoughts of their children.
If they are not aware at all or unable to intervene, then that is what I mean by bad parenting, how can a child of 15 be so brainwashed, under the eyes of her parents, that she can simply run rings round them - it doesn't stand to reason.
Lots of red flags to my mind.
Plus where did she get the money from to go abroad?

User avatar
ColinL
Posts: 126
Joined: Sat May 21, 2016 3:45 pm

Re: Citizenship

Postby ColinL » Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:32 pm

Richard, you did not respond to my point that Shamina went with two friends together, rather than two following her, thus missing the issue that some people repeating things that they believe to be facts are untrue, although repeated, unwittingly.

You raise an important point about the breakdown of traditional meal times with each person having something different and eating in their rooms. However if anything it is more likely to happen in white 'western' cultures, than in perhaps more traditional religious Jewish and Muslim families where the meal times are important as a family gathering to discuss the days events.

Seahermit, it is possibly the breakdown of 'western' family that is one element in these young children joining these awful groups. (note I wrote possibly, because I don't know, and our govt will not know unless it interogates her and others to find out just what their motivation was). I also assume that the young girls were savy enough not to indicate to their parents how their views were changing, if they would have prevented them going. As the family have a retired senior Met officer as a friend I assume they would have done their upmost to leave the country.

User avatar
seahermit
Posts: 389
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Citizenship

Postby seahermit » Sun Mar 03, 2019 2:47 pm

It is difficult for a Westerner and one from a fairly average, normal family (if such a thing really exists!) to properly understand how a child/teenager can become so distant and disengaged from the parents as to end up with an extremist terrorist organisation.

All I can say is that, whilst my parents were far from brilliant, they were atleast very responsible and would have known pretty quickly if I had been hanging out with petty criminals or other local no-gooders. If we had lived in a rough and poor part of town, father unemployed etc., who knows of course ..

I only skim the newspapers these days, read what is important and ignore the rest. All doom and gloom, there is a relentless fixation with crime, violence and all the most sensational, headline- catching stories. In that sense, I agree with Colini - it is hard to get a balanced and true perspective from the media about what is happening in the world, good or bad.

User avatar
Richard
Posts: 2442
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:36 pm

Re: Citizenship

Postby Richard » Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:43 pm

colinl,

The confusion (on my part) arose from the departure In December 2014, when Sharmeena Begum (no relation to Shamima), who was friendly with the trio, ran away to Syria. She had been deeply unhappy following the death of her mother and her father’s remarriage. It appears that Sharmeena played a key role in convincing her friends to follow.
Abase, Sultana and Shamima left for Syria in February 2015. In March 2015 five other girls from Bethnal Green Academy of 900 mainly Muslim students), all aged 15 or 16, were barred from travelling abroad by a judge in the High Court.

Where did the children get the cash from, perhaps they saved up their 'pocket money? Also it seems strange that kids of 15 can be allowed to travel without adult supervision.
The airline or passport control should have done some basic checks to see if permission had been granted.

User avatar
Richard
Posts: 2442
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:36 pm

Re: Citizenship

Postby Richard » Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:33 am

Normally children rebel against their parents at a certain age and this does not mean the parents are necessarily inadequate.
However, to run away to start a new life abroad shows some huge disregard for the feelings of the parents, their hurt and distress which the child should know will ensue.
There must be some reason why the child can just override such feelings without overwhelming remorse pulling them back from the brink.

Being a friend of the police may mean that the family were/are upright citizens etcetera but often the children of police and teachers especially, can have problems if the parent(s) bring authoritarian discipline back home from work.
Likewise, if a child feels it is being treated unfairly it will probably rebel.

So, let's say the parents were not close enough to the children or the children did not feel loved enough to understand how their actions would really hurt their parents.
The first (unrelated) Begum to leave the country clearly had parental issues but they can't all have been so very unhappy at home or felt unloved?

cbe
Posts: 162
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:29 pm

Re: Citizenship

Postby cbe » Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:20 am

The only thing I would like to add to this thread is that I find it amusing that this lady was 'a girl of 15' easily led etc etc and yet we have political parties in this country who say the voting age should be lowered to 16. A lot of maturity must be gained in that very important 12 month period.

User avatar
Richard
Posts: 2442
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:36 pm

Re: Citizenship

Postby Richard » Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:25 pm

I thought that Shamima was treated too harshly in being deprived of her citizenship over a decision she made at the age of 15.
I believe Sajid Javid MP, the Home Secretary, made a knee-jerk reaction.
Youngsters have to make mistakes and learn to weigh things in the balance, they do not have the experience to make important decisions and yet some arbitrary age has to be set.
In the case of voting if this is allowed at an age where they lack the maturity they cannot later change their mind to reverse it until the next time.
The age of voting is currently 18 in England, N. Ireland and Wales.
We may have had a different referendum result by playing with the voting age for all we know but even with the EU referendum a majority voted to leave yet we still see the politicians unable to deliver a democratic decision.

Was Shamima responsible enough at 15 to sympathize with terrorists in what is seen as a criminal way or at what age should her decision be punishable?
If she committed a crime by her actions then she should be tried by law.

User avatar
ColinL
Posts: 126
Joined: Sat May 21, 2016 3:45 pm

Re: Citizenship

Postby ColinL » Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:58 pm

Sajid Javid was aiming his actions to the hard right of his party. He also claimed that it would not be safe for a Consular official to travel to the refugee camp, yet the Times reporter was able to get there and has interviewed her at least twice.. This last weekend the British solicitor who is representing the family managed to get to the camp even though the Syrian forces would not let him in. (the press has not said which Syrian forces they are, Syrian govt, Kurdish Syrians, or various Syrian moderate democratic forces!)
Anyway the govt is milking this for political advantage


Return to “Non-Hastings Chat”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests