Corbyn will never be Prime Minister

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ColinL
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Re: Corbyn will never be Prime Minister

Postby ColinL » Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:19 pm

Richard, thanks for your polite question and comment about evidence.

If I came to your house and found a whole room full of new clothes, still with their security tags on but that you were unable to provide evidence of purchase, then that would, in the absence of any explanation be evidence of a potential theft. Evidence might also be finger prints at a scene, that whilst not conclusive in itself, it could in conjunction with other facts lead to conviction. Very basically, without getting into semantics, it is proof of something, rather than an opinion of the same facts. A GP can give evidence about a medical issue. A member of the public can only give an opinion about the same matter.

If someone noticed you in a shop, looking quite furtive, wearing a long coat in very warm weather it would be an opinion about your actions, it would not be proof of wrong doing. It could be that you were somewhat eccentric. If you are clocked by police doing 40 MPH on St Helens Road then tha would be evidence against you. If however a passerby saw a vehicle at speed, it would not be evidence of a given speed, only an opinion that the vehicle was being driven fast, not evidence of actual speed.

You made an earlier and apposite point about law and technicality. Not long ago a motorist was found not guilty of an offence (it was either speed or parking) even though they had committed the act, but the local council had failed, when erecting the camera, to have given the statutory notice before having done so. In that case the evidence was both the speed or parking time but also the rules regarding new new regulations. Whole textbooks are devoted to the issue of evidence.

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seahermit
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Re: Corbyn will never be Prime Minister

Postby seahermit » Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:12 pm

ColinL, you are off your head.

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Richard
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Re: Corbyn will never be Prime Minister

Postby Richard » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:45 pm

Evidence relating to the famous (1994) O.J. Simpson trial in the U.S.A. shows how facts can be argued either way.
Simpson had a 'Dream Team' of expensive lawyers acting on his behalf and they argued that 'if the glove does not fit you must acquit'.
Those infamous gloves were key evidence in the murder trial against O.J. Simpson.
Lawyers and the police were accused of "manipulating" the gloves and possibly tampering with evidence.
Simpson's defense team, led by Johnnie Cochran, dismantled the jurors' trust in the seemingly irrefutable DNA evidence, and in the police who investigated Simpson—a trust already on shaky ground in the wake of the acquittal in 1991 of four white police officers charged with excessive force after they were caught on video beating Rodney King, a black man, on the side of an L.A. freeway.

Who would want to be a lawyer?

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ColinL
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Re: Corbyn will never be Prime Minister

Postby ColinL » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:53 pm

Again Seahermit, personal abuse and not one sentence of argument. I do hope that readers can see through your attempt to avoid discussing the claims that you prefer not to be debated

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ColinL
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Re: Corbyn will never be Prime Minister

Postby ColinL » Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:11 pm

Richard you are confusing what you describe as 'manipulating facts', and a lawyers job of testing the veracity of evidence before a court or tribunal. If there are flaws or possible other interpretations of facts as presented it is just and equitable that the issues are examined.

At the risk of being abused by seahermit again for repeating previously cited sources, the applicant lawyers in the Fraser Tribunal filed some 20 folders of 'evidence' of antisemitism, yet two main witnesses John Mann ex Labour MP, (soon to be Lord Mann for services to the Tory Party) and Denis MacShane refused when asked, to define antisemitism, saying it is obvious to them and refused to do so. The Tribunal told MacShane, in no uncertain terms that he fundamentally misunderstood the Macpherson decisions on discrimination. Yet they expected the Tribunal just to accept complaints they made.

The Tribunal, went through all the 'evidence' and came to the conclusion that it was mere opinion or thoughts and not testable against a given criteria

It is up to judges and in relevant , juries to consider the different arguments put to them and decide on the arguments put to them

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seahermit
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Re: Corbyn will never be Prime Minister

Postby seahermit » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:05 am

No, not personal abuse. Just a statement of opinion.

All this long-winded stuff is nothing whatsoever to do with the original thread, an assessment of Jeremy Corbyn. It is just a lot of waffle and does not make a lot of sense. If you cannot see that, then I am afraid you are more than a little off your head.

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Richard
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Re: Corbyn will never be Prime Minister

Postby Richard » Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:16 am

It does have something to do with Corbyn's fitness for premiership.
Corbyn said we should not have named Russian state as the culprit in connection with the poisoning of the Skripals without incontrovertible evidence.
A spokesman for Jeremy Corbyn said he had always taken a “proportionate, evidence-based approach” to what took place.
The same approach towards claims of antisemitism?

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ColinL
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Re: Corbyn will never be Prime Minister

Postby ColinL » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:38 pm

Seahermit you really do not like your views being challenged.
Now you claim that my comments have nothing to do with the original post. Given that you have made assertions about Corbyn's character and associations, my contributions are central to your unsupported allegations.

Your current claim is that 'it is a lot of waffle and does not make any sense'. If you would like to explain what it is that does not make any sense, then I can explain it, although I doubt you will as it will put you on the spot.

I amend my comment on 'personal abuse'. It should have read an 'abusive personal opinion'

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seahermit
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Re: Corbyn will never be Prime Minister

Postby seahermit » Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:06 pm

Richard, I have some respect for your views and the moderate way they are expressed. But unfortunately what started as an interesting discussion has been, in my view, spoilt by considerable rambling off-topic into all sorts of side issues, what happened in the 1930's, the nature of evidence and proof etc. etc.! It is no doubt fascinating but of dubious relevance to the original thread, an simple assessment of how Corbyn looks at the moment in the light of his actions over the last year or so.

I am also disappointed by the confrontational, hyperbolic and emotional statements by some posters. It is probably for that reason that hardly anyone else is contributing to the discussion.

I also am withdrawing. That will be greeted as a retreat and a delight by some but it's not at all like that. I am simply very busy with more important things and cannot be bothered with time-wasters (I'm sorry but I feel that is the correct word).

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ColinL
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Re: Corbyn will never be Prime Minister

Postby ColinL » Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:49 pm

Richard, you are right in a way about the comparison of waiting for evidence, however in respect of antisemitism, all Labour members including Corbyn do not want antisemitic views in the party and for that reason procedures have been strengthened but as I have previously said (Seahermit will not like it), Corbyn does not have any say in democratic disciplinary procedures that are separate from the leadership. The dispute, and this is important, as Seahermit has claimed there is a 'crisis', and if I remember you also said the same, that there is not so far any evidence to support her claim. 0.06% of membership involved in actionable activity. That does not suggest a crisis nor an institutional problem. As you have also said we will have to wait for the EHRC report, that I hope is carried out with due process of law.

A number of Jewish organisations and individuals have submitted evidence to support the party. This is a useful opportunity to counter some of the propaganda that is spread by the press


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