Corbyn will never be Prime Minister

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ColinL
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Re: Corbyn will never be Prime Minister

Postby ColinL » Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:54 pm

Ms Seahermit, we are all busy but it is necessary to discuss controversial claims once they are made and not let them go as if they are true. If you change your mind and spell out the facts that you dispute or explain what it is that confuses you as 'waffle' or 'hyperbole' then I am sure we can make progress

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Richard
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Re: Corbyn will never be Prime Minister

Postby Richard » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:22 am

As far as I am aware Sir William Macpherson was picked to lead the public inquiry into Stephen Lawrence’s murder and the allegedly corrupt police investigation that followed.
Macpherson defined institutional racism as “the collective failure of an organisation to provide an appropriate and professional service to people because of their colour, culture or ethnic origin”. It is seen in “processes, attitudes and behaviour which amount to discrimination through unwitting prejudice, ignorance, thoughtlessness and racist stereotyping which disadvantages minority ethnic people”.
Antisemitism is generally considered to be a form of racism.
There are dangers of introducing too much subjectivity into the definition of racism, by allowing the victim’s perception of the nature of a hostile act to be determinative, rather than (as Macpherson intended) the starting point of an investigation.
If Labour are allowing potential victims the last word as to what constitutes anti-Semitism (as above) this precludes all investigation into the intention of the impugned act, it interferes with the rule of law, which rarely if ever allows irrebuttable presumptions.
So, is the Macpherson definition perhaps misunderstood or given incorrect interpretation or importance, within the Labour Party's anti-Semitism definition?

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ColinL
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Re: Corbyn will never be Prime Minister

Postby ColinL » Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:07 pm

Richard you have identified the exact nub of the issue of what is and is not antisemitism, and that it cannot be a subjective view. Macpeherson Report was discussed by the judge in Fraser v UCU. He said of two MPs who complained of atisemitism, "We did not derive assistance from the two Members of Parliament who appeared before us. Both gave glib evidence, appearing supremely confident of the rightness of their positions".

In relation to John Mann (now supposedly a govt antisemitism Czar) they said
"Mr Mann could manage without even that assistance.(Macpherson ) He told us that the leaders of the Respondents were at fault for the way in which they conducted debates but did not enlighten us as to what they were doing wrong or what they should be doing differently. He did not claim ever to have witnessed any Congress or other UCU meeting".


In relation to the other MP Mr MacShane, they said "For Dr MacShane, it seemed that all answers lay in the MacPherson Report (the effect of which he appeared to misunderstand). The Tribunal commenting on them both said "Both parliamentarians clearly enjoyed making speeches. Neither seemed at ease with the idea of being required to answer a question not to his liking".

Macpherson is not misunderstood within the Labour Party structure and are not allowing complainants the last say, and for that reason it is being attacked. It is being misused by complainants, who following the Board of Deputies suggestion is that it is up to Jewish people (but only certain ones) to define antisemitism.


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