Corbyn will never be Prime Minister

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ColinL
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Re: Corbyn will never be Prime Minister

Postby ColinL » Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:04 pm

Cbe, So much disinformation - and opinion to respond to as opposed to academic and factual detail that I usually post, that I shall do so according to date

15 Oct.
Opinion of what constitutes 'socialism', based purely on some public spending and some state ownership.
Cbe seems to think that she/he knows more than the main world economists. The Chicago School and Milton Friedman established the idea of Monetarism. In the UK that was developed by Keith Joseph. The concept is discussed and accepted as a valid (if not approved of) by economists such as Varoufakis, who has taught in Australia & the US as well as economists on the right.
Currently, the nationalist right wing- (non socialist) government is generally undetstood to be pursuing policies of spending on the minimum wage, unemployment benefits, public housing. It is nonetheless right wing in both social & economic goals. Socialist thinking is based more upon, Marxist economic & social theory, that was developed by Keynes in the 1930s, although, communitarian ideas evolved from Leveller thinking from the late 1600s.

Public spending does not mean socialism.

cbe gives us her/his personal opinion, I attempt to provide cited academic and other sources, rather than pure personal thoughts. cbe might have given a couple of basic newspaper opinion articles but not of ay credible depth.

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ColinL
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Re: Corbyn will never be Prime Minister

Postby ColinL » Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:24 pm

cbe and Seahermit 17/18 Oct and Richard 18 Oct ( who always reads up on issues and tries to interpret before commenting. Thank you to Richard)

cbe/seahermit suggest, correctly that it was then then Labour govt, who used PFI. They wrongly suggest that Labour supporters and the current leadership have forgotten that fact. The then leadership under Blair,Mandelson & Brown knew exactly what they were doing. Rank & file activists and backbenchers such as Corbyn, Abbott & MacDonnel strongly opposed and voted against those actions, in defence of ordinary families and the long term economic damahge PFI would cause. We will pay for hospitals and schoolsfor decades, but still not own the assets

Corbyn is often cited as some kind of serial opposer of the party out of spite or otherwise; it is however his consistentcy in opposing policies that were detrimental to people and that benefitted private equity capital, off shore investors etc. He is said to have opposed 'Labour Party' some 400 times but look on They Work for You, site and see those issues tha he opposed

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seahermit
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Re: Corbyn will never be Prime Minister

Postby seahermit » Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:02 pm

I suppose that there is some important point being made in all of the above. ColinL seems to have difficulty in condensing his thoughts into a concise statement about the factual situation going on at present. What happened in the 1930's or the 1990's has little relevance to the current debate.

If I were cbe I would find it offensive that his perfectly valid statements (and pretty accurate in my view) are dismissed as "personal opinions based on a couple of basic newspaper articles". I am afraid that ColinL comes over as a thoroughly unpleasant arguer who would get short shrift in any proper debating chamber.

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Richard
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Re: Corbyn will never be Prime Minister

Postby Richard » Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:25 pm

I think it is a good idea to have different views and interpretations as a learning process.
:)

cbe
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Re: Corbyn will never be Prime Minister

Postby cbe » Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:46 pm

seahermit - I am not offended in the slightest by Colin, who has finally outed himself as a red in tooth and claw socialist and cites Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbott as his heroes as defenders of 'the working class. To be honest I have read Colin's earlier submissions to both you and Richard and I can only say what I said once, before he seems to be a barrack-room lawyer and will try to drown you with his 'facts'. Interestingly Colin regards himself as the only poster (on this topic anyway) with an opinion worthy of merit. As soon as I see a 'true' socialist talking about the economy I tend to have a laughing fit and then go and count the spoons.

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Richard
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Re: Corbyn will never be Prime Minister

Postby Richard » Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:57 pm

The truth of the (Brexit) matter is that the continentals cannot understand what it is that the British people want. They have said this increasingly in recent weeks and I cannot blame them.
It makes them look silly to keep granting extensions forever and a day just to accommodate the horrendously protracted negotiations.
A Civil war inside the Tory Party and the usual internecine-like comments, among left and right wing politicians, further compound the issue.
The Scots will experience internecine (destructive to both sides) warfare of their own over attempts to separate from the rest of the U.K.
The northern Irish have no functional devolved government because two years ago there was a power-sharing argument between the two governing parties (the DUP - or Democratic Unionist Party - and Sinn Fein), which led to the government at Stormont being dissolved - and it has yet to form again.
Only the Welsh seem to know how they benefit from the hand-outs from England and just about manage to tow the line!

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seahermit
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Re: Corbyn will never be Prime Minister

Postby seahermit » Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:26 pm

I wish I could express myself as beautifully as cbe above, lovely, I had a good laugh and agree with every word.

Re: Richard's very apposite assessment also cannot be bettered. I suppose one could get a bit depressed by the political chaos, no other word for it. Not like anything I have known before. I suppose you just have to regard them in the Commons largely as the clowns they are and go and count spoons!

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Richard
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Re: Corbyn will never be Prime Minister

Postby Richard » Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:42 pm

Referring to definitions or socialism or capitalism I have to say that I am a little unsure of the arguments, despite ColinL's informative asides.
Socialism cannot exist without Capitalism, unless a regime is in place that denies Capitalism.
That is not as easy as it might seem.
In this country it appears that many workers are more than happy to make money out of running a business (ripping people off over small repairs to buildings, for example) but some intellectual socialists seem unhappy that others who do no physical work can make even more money.
It is just jealousy at the extremes and nothing to do with every day events and realities.
Try getting repairs to your roof and see what charges can be made for a few short hours of labour. Workers have the upper hand and don't we know it!
People are desperate to get into this country to make money and some die in the process (witness the immigrants dead in a lorry in today's news).
This means that Britain is renowned as good for people who want to work, or better themselves and the dynamics dictate that this situation is positive.
I understand that some people fall through the net and have mental health or drug issues and may need special care but that surely cannot be reason to scream socialism from the roof-tops.
I fail to understand the arguments for socialism unless it means that people who do building repairs at inflated prices are brought to book.

cbe
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Re: Corbyn will never be Prime Minister

Postby cbe » Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:53 pm

corbz.PNG

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ColinL
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Re: Corbyn will never be Prime Minister

Postby ColinL » Fri Oct 25, 2019 3:58 am

Cbe & Seahermit. seahermit comments that cbe had written 'beautifully' but declined to identify exactly what it was that suggested that as an appropriate description. Cbe then reverts to form and comes out with "barrack room lawyer" jibe, presumably as a means of undermining a contributors comments, yet fails to follow through with any legal or other citation, to refute anything I have wrote. She/he thus avoided any backing for their opinion that the EU is a 'socialist monolith' . Such description is on a par with the initials that appear on discussion sites 'EUSSR', a descriptor that any economist or reputable politician from the right, left or centre would not use. That includes the fringes of current US republican politics.

If and when Cbe comes up with any legal or political article in any journal then we can debate laws and philosophy, but until that time she/he could avoid using personal insult as a method of debate. cbe continues with personal attack when she/he suggests that I have 'outed' myself as 'red in tooth and claw' as a socialist merely because I factually challenged an earlier statement of her/his, that Labour Party had forgotten that it was they who had forgotten PFI. Again they do not seek to debate the issue but resort to attacking the writer rather than what they have written.

I could well cite Johnson, Reagan, Thatcher, Joseph, C Kennedy, or Menzies Campbell but that does not mean I am either a Tory or a LibDem. I have looked again at my previous comment and cannot find any statements made that disclose a particular political stance.

A cartoon type creation should be funny rather than a trite and overused joke. Many many subjects have been covered by the image and it ceases to be amusing and shows little originality or indeed thought. Johnson is playing games with voters, as is his adviser Dominic Cummings. It was Johnson with his statement that UK will leave the EU at the end of October come what may, that has led us to this, not the Lzbour Party or the EU. Even some staunch leave MPs voted against the Johnson proposals.


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