Brexit and the current position

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Richard
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Re: Brexit and the current position

Postby Richard » Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:55 pm

Public sector workers seem to have have relatively safe and secure jobs with Unions to provide protection and many appear to enjoy camaraderie unheard of in private sector jobs.
Zero hours and the gig economy may be a different kettle of fish.
I always advise friends in difficulty of the, often bullying and deceitful bosses, in the private sector, to contact ACAS for advice if they are experiencing unwelcome pressure in the work place.

I believe Uber tried to classify its staff as independent contractors (in the 'gig' economy') but this idea was overturned by the Courts.
The ruling by a London employment tribunal meant drivers for the ride-hailing app would be entitled to holiday pay, paid rest breaks and the national minimum wage.
People on zero-hours contracts are seen as employees in some sense, as they are entitled to holiday pay, but like those in the gig economy, they are not entitled to sick pay.

In just about any job (not sure about working in the legal sector) you can be intimidated and forced out of employment, rightly or wrongly, by undue pressure from on high. I have seen it all in the private sector and am not impressed at the way in which people's lives can be damaged.
At least there is ACAS to offer advice but not many employees seem to know about it.
ACAS gives sound advice to employees and employers alike.

cbe
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Re: Brexit and the current position

Postby cbe » Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:06 pm

Colin - if you read my post I didn't say Public sector workers didn't work - they do and so they should! I inferred that they (in the main) vote Labour. Labour will always have a large public sector (excepting perhaps the police - which you put in your list) and so they have a vested interest in ensuring their jobs are safe. Public sector workers, students, immigrants and the people who have no intention of working, will vote Labour - it was ever thus but as Labour dies where will their votes go?

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ColinL
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Re: Brexit and the current position

Postby ColinL » Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:35 pm

I did not say or imply that you had suggested that public sector workers don't work. I was interested in your lumping public sector workers as if they are of a certain type of person.

Immigrants, without some permanent right to remain do not have the right to vote. This has been one of the issues of contention of EU nationals, except for local elections. The current govt have supervised mass job losses of police officers and PCSOs Labour has had a long term commitment to restore lost posts. Recently the govt has claimed thousands more police will be on the streets in months, even though Chief Constables say that it takes several months to employ and then on top of that to train them to warranted status. You have still not identified how Labour no longer represents working people. Lastly you suggest that there is a sizeable minority of people who do not want to work. How many is that?

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ColinL
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Re: Brexit and the current position

Postby ColinL » Sat Sep 28, 2019 12:14 am

Richard, the position of the gig economy people, is as you suggest complicated and as I do not follow that area of law in detail I am a bit rusty. A new category of person was defined in recent years by Tribunals and academics, that of 'worker', that is a hybrid between employee and self employed.

It is the 'worker' group interestingly who although they have no formal relationship with other 'workers' , have been creating new unions, such as the Independent Workers of Great Britain because they need to join together in the UK and across the world given that these new businesses don't recognise national borders. The IWW that was first created in the US in 1905 is now recruiting in the UK in this area of employment. It is a fascinating development by contrast to my study in this area in the 1970s. Unfair dismissals do happen in legal firms unfortunately and paralegals are doing work that used to be done by trainee solicitors or newly qualified. Unfair dismissals also occur in the public sector. I was discussing with a guy today who was unfairly dismissed by his council employer and is waiting for his remedy hearing.

I am pleased that you recommend people to ACAS who do good work. In the case above the Council refused to negotiate with them when requested.

cbe
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Re: Brexit and the current position

Postby cbe » Sat Sep 28, 2019 11:05 am

Yes immigrants with the right to remain get to vote as do the millions of one-time-immigrants, whether they work or not. Please also look below at the motions which 'passed easily' at the Labour conference this week. They want to give everyone living in the country the right to vote. I can't imagine why that would be, can you?
Why is labour no longer the party of the working man? Floods of immigrants mean , potentially, floods of people looking for jobs. Floods of people looking for jobs means obviously that wages are depressed - why would a Labour government countenance the lowering of wages of their electorate? See below re Labour and immigration.
If anyone needs to tell you that, to pick out two sectors, NHS workers and teachers predominantly vote Labour then we are wasting our time with the conversation.As regards those who don't work but could - nice of you to ask me how many people that is? Knowing that a definitive figure couldn't be given. Neither of us can say, hand on heart Colin (and remove those deep-red tinted glasses), that we don't know of many such people within our own immediate area. Look also at the massively increased benefits bill.
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ColinL
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Re: Brexit and the current position

Postby ColinL » Sat Sep 28, 2019 8:50 pm

Your first posting did not mention propensity to vote for a particular party, which is why I did not mention it; I restricted my reply to the points you have raised. I find it necessary to respond to existing points rather than go off on tangent with unresolved claims hanging in the air.

You have now raised another slogan, without explaining what you mean that might easily confuse readers. You claim "millions of one time immigrants", without saying what that means by relation to the previous comment "immigrants with the right to remain". Are these not the same people?
In any event, currently more people come from non-EU countries than EU countries. Until May changed the method of counting, students were counted as 'immigrants' , whereas they are short term residents who bring in thousands of pounds per annum of income to the UK, but do not have the right to vote (unless EU in local elections). Tuition fees are at least £9,000 pa for basic courses. In order to obtain visas they have to produce proof of scholarship or of liquidated secure funds. Labour has put forward the need for strengthening the rights of all workers by better enforcement mechanisms. Wages are only depressed where incoming people do not know their rights and can not enforce them. Stronger trade unions is one method. The modern slavery investigations disrupt unscrupulous employers, who often recruit British people who may be vulnerable for various reasons. Both home and overseas workers need protection. If overseas professionals come into the country they are more likely to have the ability to ensure they get parity of conditions.

The gig economy exploits both British and non-British workers. Both need assistance.

You then go on to a proposal at conference. That is therfore not law and is normally an objective subject to investigation of practicalities. Then you role back from your claim of the 'sizeable minority, in relation to those who do not want to work. Therefore you can not say it is 'sizeable'. It could be 10,000 or any number you want to invent. I am not sure if you are aware of the actively seeking work regulations that have been made much harder in recent years.

As for voting intentions it is quite probable that those who wish to work in the public sector are more inclined to have an holistic focus and see Labour as being a party that has an inclusive attitude towards society as opposed to some other parties who have a more me, me, me, focus. Nurses, cleaners, teaching assistants, delivery drivers, shop workers, call centre staff, police staff etc are in most instances working class despite that they no longer work down pits, in ship building, in steel mills and similar.

As for your three headlines. The first one is a former govt adviser. They could be a conservative and would therefore not be independent. The latter two have been commented on above

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ColinL
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Re: Brexit and the current position

Postby ColinL » Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:18 pm

If you post the actual article by the government adviser then we can discuss it's veracity

cbe
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Re: Brexit and the current position

Postby cbe » Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:22 pm

No time tonight Colin will answer tomorrow but I can say that the 'government adviser' was Andrew Neather - former adviser to Tony Blair, Jack Straw and David Blunkett. Probably NOT a Conservative and therefore COULD be 'independent' enough for you?

cbe
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Re: Brexit and the current position

Postby cbe » Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:08 pm

Hi Colin - have glanced back through your posts which have been aimed at me and I have decided to repeat or clarify some points. I realise that these clarifications will NOT be clarified enough for you as you seem to be a nit-picker, maybe there is a Trades Union for nit-pickers?
Anyway - Very few people would try to deny that public sector workers, in the main, vote for Labour. They have a perfect right to do that but THAT is why I include those people in the catchment area for Labour votes. Students are easily influenced , we have all been there
and know this full well. The majority grow out of their attachment to the Labour Party's 'ideals' as soon as they start earning and note that the stoppages from those earnings show them that there is NO Free Stuff.No coincidence that the Labour party wish to reduce the voting age to 16.
Immigrants - I include current immigrants (hoping for right to remain), immigrants who have now attained the right to retain and ALL those immigrants who came to the country in recent decades, some of whom work and pay taxes. Is there anyone out there who will say that the vast majority of these groups do not vote Labour?
You say that Labour represent low paid workers - by advocating for more and more immigration
and those immigrants will be fighting for the same jobs as the indigenous population?
We now enter cloud-cuckoo land when you say that wages are only depressed because those immigrants don't know their rights? I realise that you are a dyed-in-the-wool socialist but even you, EVEN YOU, will recognise the term supply and demand? An abundance of would-be workers means employers do not have to offer the same level of wages as when there is a shortage of workers.
You say (almost) that I have had to roll back on my claims regarding benefit claimants who will not work. Not in the slightest. Obviously I cannot give a figure, because I cannot find a reliable one - let's face it. incompetent Government departments will not want to say- oh yes we are paying out of work benefits (or whatever latest name they use) to hundreds of thousands who are not entitled to them. But I come back to my original point - everyone (EVERYONE) knows people who sit at home and draw out of work benefits when they are perfectly able to work. If you or anyone on here says they don't then that person is either a liar or very naive.
Enough now because I know that you will come back with a load of nit-picking and pedantry and socialist slogans.

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Richard
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Re: Brexit and the current position

Postby Richard » Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:26 pm

Some interesting points have been raised, bear in mind the following:

Not all Public Sector workers are members of a Union.
Some Private Sector workers are denied membership of a Union because it is not permitted.
I find it interesting to think that people vote one way or the other depending on their job.
Personally I would not imagine that my job would determine my allegiance to a political party.
Thanks ColinL and cbe for presenting me with a new perspective...


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