Labour - a rethink

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cbe
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Labour - a rethink

Postby cbe » Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:46 pm

Labour has lost Scotland and is losing Wales. It has been on the wrong side of the Brexit
question as witnessed by being deserted by a lot of their supporters in this General Election, so what are they going to do to try to get back to a position where they might have a chance of power ? I spotted a quote online today which made me do some checking and I can confirm that if you ignore the two Blair victories (and the left wing of the party would be happy to do that) they have not won a general Election for 50 years !!! If you realise that that covers a period where they were dominant in Scotland and Wales that has to be very, very worrying for them. Worrying for me too, as i said on another thread - we do not want a one party state. Maybe a new party has to come into existence to fill the gap?

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Richard
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Re: Labour - a rethink

Postby Richard » Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:27 am

Although the Labour Party had been founded by the unions in the nineteenth century, Labour was scarred by four successive general election defeats and Blair became convinced that a closeness to the unions had played a large part in this. Blair’s ‘New’ Labour ostentatiously distanced itself from the unions and declared itself a party of enterprise and markets to court the union-sceptical median voter. Moving to the right as a an attractive alternative to the Tories
Corbyn's Labour recently lurched to the left again with momentum and the unions raising their heads, this was a mistake for those who remembered the union-led strikes for higher pay that crippled the country in the 'winter of discontent'.
Until Labour can moderate the unions and their influence over the public sector and not be shown to be encouraging more of the same then their power-base has to be suspect.

cbe
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Re: Labour - a rethink

Postby cbe » Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:58 am

Blair's success at General Elections had an effect on the Conservative Party too. They moved to the left to meet New Labour and have stayed there ever since. On many issues you could not get a cigarette paper between the two parties. Corbyn's lurch to the left put a stop to that but the Conservatives stayed where they were.

cbe
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Re: Labour - a rethink

Postby cbe » Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:06 pm

Can you see a pattern?
Attachments
pattern.PNG

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ColinL
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Re: Labour - a rethink

Postby ColinL » Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:14 pm

cbe your political compass is all over the place. The Tory party moving to the left and staying there! :D
Blair used his 'third way' notion as a means of disguising maintaining the Tory economic programme of loose controls of the economy and privatisations, sale of public housing stock, use of hedge funds for schools and hospitals pp provision. They did allow some social improvements such as Sure Start Schemes, very low minimum wage, improved waiting times for NHS procedures but the latter things are not as such left wing as they are widely adopted across Europe in some right leaning states. Socially progressive does not mean left wing.

Is the 'conservatives moving to the left', another wild unsupported claim so favoured by your chum the seahermit with her fantastical ideas?

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ColinL
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Re: Labour - a rethink

Postby ColinL » Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:21 pm

Richard, it is not a matter for the Labour Party to tame TUs as they are entirely independent organisations. The Unions are controlled by their members, who like voters in general are not that easy to motivate into activity although that is changing in the new Trade Unions that have been formed in recent years. There are a mere handful of TU delegates on the LP Executive representing their founding status.

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seahermit
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Re: Labour - a rethink

Postby seahermit » Sun Dec 15, 2019 11:43 pm

I have never known a forum where such weird statements are made, presumably with a straight face!

"The trade unions are entirely independent organisations". The unions helped to found the Labour party, their destinies are heavily linked and always will be. The unions used to fund potential MPs and have block voting rights when backing them, as well as backing candidates for the National Executive. Richard would know if all that is the case now? In recent years, the wielding of power by the unions, the endless strikes in the 1970's largely for political reasons rather than because of genuine inequalities in pay, alleged intimidation of members and interference by foreign interests, I remember allegations of vote-rigging also .. "independent" is NOT the correct word!

The Conservative party moved somewhat to the left during the Blair era, had to, in order to shake off the less appealing aspects of Thatcherism. That is a matter of history, whether Colin (stuck mentally in the 1970 era when he was younger) likes it or not.

"..like voters in general are not that easy to motivate into activity" .. Does Colin mean like in this 2019 election, where it has been almost impossible to get voters out of their armchairs?!

Laughing too much, cannot continue.

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ColinL
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Re: Labour - a rethink

Postby ColinL » Mon Dec 16, 2019 8:45 am

A poster dislikes someone's comment and therefore describes it as 'weird', without actually identifying what in their view constitutes weird. Use of the word says more about them than about the comment.

I am interested to know what this 'moved somewhat to the left', constitutes in terms of policy position, bearing in mind that supporting some social change does not constitute, moving to the left. Or perhaps that is one more of your wild assertions that no reputable political commentator would agree. Is there a history book recording the Tory Party move to the left?

I don't think that you either understand the word independent, or the diverse range of Trade Unions. The Unions members through their conferences and structures are in control of their organisations. The Labour Party does not send delegates to TU ruling bodies, and thus they are independent of the Labour Party. If you have information to counter that I am sure that the relevant statutory office would be delighted to hear from you.

There are hundreds of Trade Unions, most are not affiliated to the Labour Party and therefore must be independent of it in fact & practice. As for 'endless strikes', you seem to be in your own bubble created by the Mail, Express and CCHQ. There were many strikes during a period of conflict when management and owners were seeking higher productivity amongst other things, at the same time that little investment was being put into place. The situation was opposite to what was happening in western Europe and Japan. Shock horror - German industries had workers on management boards, investment went in, productivity increased.

By contrast, while Unions are independent of Labour, as I wrote previously, Labour is not independent of Unions, as some Unions, but not all, are affiliated to Labour , and therefore Labour cannot and does not control the TUs. The structure of Labour has increasingly changed in the last few decades reducing the block vote of TUs in favour of what is known as OMOV one member one vote. Those trade unions who wish to, may make donations to Labour if their rules allow them to do so. I know that will not validate your prejudice but facts are facts.

Always take a moment, and read what is written, not what you think is written

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ColinL
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Re: Labour - a rethink

Postby ColinL » Mon Dec 16, 2019 8:48 am

Seahermit, I do apologise, there are probably too many words for you to read as you have previously complained about too many facts being written in a contribution.

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seahermit
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Re: Labour - a rethink

Postby seahermit » Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:53 am

My statements were perfectly clear and I do not really need to explain or amplify them. Certainly not by means of the verbal "catharsis" (to use a polite word) displayed above - Colin seems to think that if he piles up the number of words, that makes his statements more valid than trying to be succinct.

All I would add is that the relationship between the unions and Labour is complex. I have not ventured into the details because I find the whole subject a bore, but the idea that they are completely independent organisations with separate destinies is an obvious nonsense and few people will go along with that.


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