Pubs and Bars

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Richard
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Pubs and Bars

Postby Richard » Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:18 am

hi folks !!
I'm trying to find out if any Pubs have closed in the HSL area since the smoking ban / economic downturn.
Most seem to be hanging on even with just a very few regulars, I don't suppose there can be much turnover to keep them open forever at this rate?

I assume most are owned by a brewery Landlord with managers paying rent on the premises and suspect sooner or later that the Landlord will look to other ways of makng money i.e. by selling for other retail or more likely private housing development?


:(




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terry_again
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Re: Pubs and Bars

Postby terry_again » Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:22 pm

Many pubs have closed, both before and since the smoking ban. Back in the 1860s the Hastings area had a pub or beer house for every 110 people and there was more of these outlets than there was days of the year.

The smoking ban has undoubtedly hurt the pub industry badly, but there are many other factors such as cheap supermarket booze, lack-lustre management, the economic downturn and a short term profit culture which leads to pubs being closed and sold for a quick profit rather than keeping them going as a sustained business. The lack of an area where smokers can go with their drinks is a definite handicap, but some still survive.

This may be good news for the pubs that remain open, however, it isn't always that simple. The case of the Marina Fountain for instance. This pub continues to do a good trade and is (in my opinion) one of, if not the, best run, safest and friendliest pub in the Hastings area, but its location in Caves Road is far from the town centre and the bus service in the evening is non existent. Even this isn't the whole story. There is only one alternative pub in its immediate area and many people have expressed the opinion that if they didn't like the Fountain, the Bo Peep (Bop Heap) is the only place left to go. Once there were two other boozers in Caves Road, giving more variety. The Bop Heap is a fine pub on the right night, but it caters for a very different 'crowd.' I'd hate it if people thought I was slagging it off, I'm not. It can be seen that this why we have areas such as Robertson Street where there are large numbers of pubs in a small area. I'll add that I rarely visit any of these pubs, so can't comment on them.

It's also true that pubs tend to follow a particular theme. ie. live music pubs, sports bars, etc. There are different pubs catering for different musical tastes as well. Whilst this 'theme' idea isn't new, it is far more defined today than ever before. Some pubs still attempt to be all things to all men, but they rarely achieve the reputation required to attract a large following.

All pubs have their regulars, but the local boozer is now more likely to contain additional people who have travelled a sometimes surprising distance to spend time with old friends and acquire new ones. Of course, this is bad news for such people's own local pub, but that is likely to benefit from people outside its immediate area as well, so it evens out.

In some ways the smoking ban has made pubs more sociable as smokers gathering outside often find themselves chatting to people they would never have spoken to inside the pub. This phenomenon has become so well known, that even non smokers often congregate outside purely for the conversation.

A non smoking friend bemoans the fact that she is frequently left sitting alone in the pub guarding a mountain of handbags and drinks while her friends are outside smoking and nattering.

Pub culture continues to evolve even though there are fewer pubs. Every pub has its own character and its own characters. This is the way it has always been, but as I pointed out above, many of these people have travelled some distance to use that particular pub, because that is where they meet their friends, where they fit in, where they feel comfortable and more importantly, safe. It is often the case that people rarely, if ever, visit their local and then protest loudly when it closes.

Most of the pubs that have closed appear to be small traditional local pubs that relied entirely on people in their immediate neighbourhood for their custom. This type of pub is rapidly becoming an anachronism, although some can provide an excellent environment, but they are often only visited briefly by people who then move on to more exciting outlets.

We are very fortunate in Hastings to have so many well run, safe and friendly pubs from which to choose. Some towns don't have any such pubs. I won't comment on modern pubs such as Yates or Weatherspoons as these are not to my liking and I rarely visit them.

A list of pubs that have closed since the smoking ban would probably be misleading as the smoking ban is rarely the only factor. However, here are a few, although this is by no means a complete list. (some of these may have closed prior to the ban's introduction).

The Smugglers (formally the Wellington). This was a friendly live music pub often used by people who simply didn't fit in anywhere else. A few regulars now use the Tubman.

The Langham. A large pub with a small bar and little going for it.

The Bulverhythe.

The Beaconsfield.

The Queen Adelaide.

The Whitefriars.

The Manor. This pub's closure surprised many, but like the Langham and the Whitefriars, it was a large building, originally constructed as a hotel, that in recent years only made money from the bar.

The Granville. A pub with all the character and charm of a fish and chip shop.

The Malvern (formally the New Broom) The only pub in a large housing estate. What went wrong?

The Royal Sussex Arms. Another surprise closure.

Crown House. Not really anyone's idea of a pub. Some of the Crown House furniture can now be found in the recently refurbished Carlisle.

There are also a number of pubs that have closed and subsequently reopened, sometimes under a new name.

There are a few areas that have never had any pubs in them due to restrictive covenants by Victorian religious extremists such as Clive Vale, although there was the short lived Forester's Arms Beer House and Wood's Beer House which seems to have lasted a bit longer. The (pre smoking ban) Clive Vale Hotel was in Ore Village and the Ashburnham and Belmont are technically outside the Clive Vale area.





Michael
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Re: Pubs and Bars

Postby Michael » Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:09 am

TERRY_ _ _..If the Ashburnham is not 'technically' in Clive Vale, what area is it in?_ _ _just asking, enjoyed reading your previous post.




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terry_again
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Re: Pubs and Bars

Postby terry_again » Sun Dec 02, 2012 7:35 am

I'm not actually sure, but as I understand it, it was just outside Clive Vale's border. The border may have moved since it was built. The Belmont is on the Belmont estate logically enough. Clive Vale was originally called Cliff Valley. How it ended up as Clive Vale is a mystery, but possibly down to poor spelling, the old Hastings accent or a combination of the two.




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Gerry Glyde
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Re: Pubs and Bars

Postby Gerry Glyde » Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:17 am

The Clyve family are mentioned in the tax roles for the area between 14-17thC when mention is made of a Clyfe House which was demolished before the end of the century. Spelling corruption will possibly account for the current name. Mid to late Victorian sale of estates for building often included covenants preventing the building of or use of premises for the consumption or selling of alcohol. This included sales from private houses. Those lands may have been in the ownership of non-conformists, Quakers or people who did not want the masses to have easy access to strong liqour. In the late 19c the Temperance movement was quite strong with people being encouraged to "sign the pledge". Open meetings were held on the stade and other places around the town.





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terry_again
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Re: Pubs and Bars

Postby terry_again » Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:52 am

There were even several temperance 'coffee taverns' opened in the area, including the Clock House on the corner of Waterworks Road. Most of these ventures rapidly ran out of money and at least one, the Albert Hotel, later became a fully licensed public house, albeit a short lived one.

The story of the Albert is an amusing one. For some obscure reason, the temperance people convinced themselves that they were getting this huge building for virtually no cost and were surprised when the builder submitted the bill.

Another short lived beer house was the Forester's Arms at Pinders, right in the middle of Clive Vale. This was opened by a former member of the temperance movement who reformed his opinions.

Many of those involved in the temperance movement were simply religious nuts and whilst most of us are quite prepared to live and let live, they were not and sought to control people's behaviour to a ridiculous extent and this extended way beyond their drinking habits.

There were certainly too many pubs and beer houses in Victorian Britain and many were in unsuitable premises. This was not in the interests of the industry or the community and whilst some of these outlets may have appeared 'charming' or 'quaint,' their passing was inevitable. The same could be said of many of today's pubs. A pub is a commercial enterprise and as such, needs to make a profit. It isn't there simply for our convenience.

Running a pub is hard work and requires many skills, especially 'people skills.' All too often people enter this industry thinking all they have to do is unlock the door and serve booze. That is far from the reality. At the end of the day you can have the best pub in the world, but it means nothing unless you get the right people in there. People go to pubs to meet their friends and acquire new ones, the surroundings are of secondary importance. It is the customers that make any pub what it is. A landlord who does not understand this is doomed to failure from day one.




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Richard
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Re: Pubs and Bars

Postby Richard » Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:13 pm

When I worked in a pub (in the N. of England) many years ago there was a 'Tap Room' for the "old-codgers" and a 'Lounge' for the more discerning customer.
Well at any rate there was a distinction along certain lines that was respected for what it was at the time.
I worked for a Landlord and Landlady and they were indeed hard-working and well-respected they knew just about everyone and made allowances for certain individuals based on their knowledge of personal circumstance and were able to make jokes and keep order and let it be known if they were going to have an 'illicit' late-night drinking extension.

Now nearly all these 'Tap Rooms' are being incorporated into the latest refit of the pub and all character erased with uniformly themed interiors run by 'managers' who know little and care less about the locals.

I know what you mean Terry about this being a business but it has changed quite a lot and mainly because the Brewery has become more competitive (assuming the landlord/manager is tied to the Brewery).
I don't know how the situation was in Hastings (say 40 years ago) or how many Landlords'Ladies/managers are 'tied' in Hastings, but let's say it is the vast majority and probably always has been?

I don't much like the modern pub with food being a main priority and slick interiors wiping out the character.
But as far as I can see there is not much evidence of this Hastings in Old Town (which is all the better for it).
"The Hastings Arms" is family run and full of character while managing to serve food and yet not losing its traditional appeal.
Up on 'The Ridge' "Simon de Montfort" is a bit soulless but not bad in catering for parties and having plenty of space.
How would we like it if all pubs became themed and sterile serving beer and meals like "Harvesters" or "Wetherspoons"?




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Gerry Glyde
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Re: Pubs and Bars

Postby Gerry Glyde » Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:56 am

The big breweries were taking over the market to such an extent as to be a monopoly that an owner landlord could not compete against. They were forced to separate their brewing and pub ownership business and have created Pub Companies but in effect are the same.often part of hotel chains. They charge individual tenants high rents to get a good return on the property capital and also on tied goods. Weatherspoons were a breath a fresh air in that they sell real ales; but they are also becoming too big although they do bring back into use some redundant buildings. However an owner or tenant landlord cannot compete against real ale for say GBP1.70 at W/spoons. In some of the larger towns (I am in Tyneside) the breweries are creating vertical drinking - few tables and mass custom with loud club type music and quick consumption.

At least micro breweries are now increasing and bringing back the feel of a local pub but with good food as they have to rely on other sources of income than alcohol. I have been to several good family run pubs around the villages outside Hastings.




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terry_again
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Re: Pubs and Bars

Postby terry_again » Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:19 pm

On my travels I usually seek out the biker bars. They tend to be the best run, safest and friendliest pubs around, yet some people are terrified of them. It's amusing really. Bikers may often look fearsome, but for the most part are nice people and very friendly.

I'm not a fan of real ale after a barrel of the stuff exploded on me while working in a beer cellar. The stink put me off for life. I usually drink fairly weak lager which has the advantage that I can drink as much as I want without ever getting too drunk. Occasionally I drink cider.

I dislike Weatherspoons and Yates and most of the purely profit driven pubs. I once saw someone with far more money than sense get served with a pint of whiskey in a Weatherspoons. Not only irresponsible, but also potentially dangerous.

As I said, most people use certain pubs because of the people they meet in that pub and because they feel safe and comfortable there. Pubs that employ bouncers clearly expect trouble and are best avoided.

As I understand it most pubs are now tied to breweries for the sale of draft beers, cider etc, but not for bottled beer, wines and spirits. The greed of the breweries was ultimately their downfall. There are a wide variety of different contracts pubs have with breweries, often dependent on who owns the building and many other factors.




april_robe
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Re: Pubs and Bars

Postby april_robe » Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:44 pm

I I have recently moved to the St Leonards area and was shocked to be barred from a pub called the St Leonards in London Road because they said I was HOMOPHOBIC_ _ _. I have done fundraising for the Terrence Higgins Trust and have many gay friends and three gay Nephews_ _ _.. I was totally outraged by their behaviiour after apologising if I hurt anybodys feelings but apparantly that was their cue for physically throwing me out!!! The blonde boy who served me with a huge chip on his shoulder took an instant dislike to me because I thought he looked nice and gay_ _ _. He went ballistic and said he is not gay and has a wife and three kids and how dare I say such a thing_ _ _.. I apologised immiedately and said I would never offend anybody intentionally but he was not going to let it go. He threw a massive hissy fit and went up to the Manager/Owner who came up to me and asked me to leave saying I was homophobic!!!!! He then put his hands on me and pushed me out the door!!!!! The person I was with informed me that although the bar staff are Gay nobody is allowed to talk about it. All Gay people have a right to express theirselves in any way they want but I don't think the staff here are doing themselves any favours by being ashamed of who they are and making it all hush hush and the blonde boy should stop mincing around behind the bar if he doesn't want to be mistaken for Pricilla Queen of the Dessert.





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